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Thread: the orbit in our galaxy

  1. #1 the orbit in our galaxy 
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    hallo,
    could you tell me on what day of the year the direction of earth motion in its solar orbits coincides with the direction of rotation around Sgr A*?

    an observer, say, in London Paris Rome at what time would be travelling in the direction of solar system
    thanks


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    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    Sorry, I am unfamiliar with the abbreviation Sgr A*. Can you clarify it please?


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    that'll be sagittarius A*,the milky ways smb
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    Does this help any?

    The Local Motion of the Galaxy
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    Quote Originally Posted by logic View Post
    hallo,
    could you tell me on what day of the year the direction of earth motion in its solar orbits coincides with the direction of rotation around Sgr A*?

    an observer, say, in London Paris Rome at what time would be travelling in the direction of solar system
    thanks
    If you are asking what I think your asking, then the answer is never.

    It sounds like you are asking when the Earth is traveling in the same direction with respect to the Sun as the Sun is moving around the center of the galaxy.

    The problem is that the plane of the solar system and the galactic plane do not coincide. The plane of the solar system is tilted to the plane of the Galaxy (by some 60), so the Earth's path always travels at an angle with respect to the Sun's movement around the galaxy.

    This image shows the difference between the two planes.

    "Men are apt to mistake the strength of their feelings for the strength of their argument.
    The heated mind resents the chill touch & relentless scrutiny of logic"-W.E. Gladstone


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    Quote Originally Posted by Janus View Post
    [the plane of the solar system is tilted.... (by some 60), so the Earth's path always travels at an angle with respect to the Sun's movement around the galaxy.
    you say orbit is tilted 60, what does it mean when they say that on 21.12.2112 our orbit will be aligned with center of Galaxy?)

    Edit, typo: 2012
    Last edited by ray; October 12th, 2011 at 11:14 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janus View Post
    If you are asking what I think your asking, then the answer is never.
    It sounds like you are asking when the Earth is traveling in the same direction with respect to the Sun as the Sun is moving around the center of the galaxy.
    I wanted to know when speed in solar orbit sums up with speed in galactic orbit, if they never fully sum up, please tell me on what day earth reaches maximum speed, and its value. Thanks for beautiful image.
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  9. #8  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ray View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Janus View Post
    [the plane of the solar system is tilted.... (by some 60), so the Earth's path always travels at an angle with respect to the Sun's movement around the galaxy.
    you say orbit is tilted 60, what does it mean when they say that on 21.12.2112 our orbit will be aligned with center of Galaxy?)
    Essentially, they mean nonsense. The people that make this claim simply don't know what they are talking about.
    "Men are apt to mistake the strength of their feelings for the strength of their argument.
    The heated mind resents the chill touch & relentless scrutiny of logic"-W.E. Gladstone


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  10. #9  
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    the solar system is moving fastest [370 Km/s] toward Leo, in mid April around 9 PM, if you are at 30 in the Northen emisphere, you should face South 15 short of straight up [looking at celestial 15 North, if you are at 35,20 and so on]
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    People will clutch at any straw in order to impose a significance to the date 21.12.2012. Why? Because some feeble minded humans need a doomsday scenario in their lives, in order to justify their feelings of the futility of existence. I have lived through at least three of these predicted doomsdays scenarios so far.

    I mean, something interesting MUST happen on 21.12.2012, see, because the numbers are so neatly arranged. It seems the universe is supposed to take notice of the way we arbitrarily decided to structure our calendar....

    So we have all these different crackpot "chicken little" predictions for 2012 - completely made up galactic alignments, planetary alignments or supermassive invisible comets, none of which have any basis in astrophysics.
    Last edited by SpeedFreek; October 13th, 2011 at 12:28 PM.
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  12. #11  
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    it is not a prediction, it is not a straw. the date coincides with Maya calendar.Mayas were not feeble minded, if you have studied their calendar. They did not predict doomsday, but the end of a cycle that strangely enough coincides with precession cycle. They knew more then astrophysicists, they see an alignment: that matter should be investigated seriously. BB theory has been written 43 centuries before Lemaitre and Penrose. Fancy that!
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    Quote Originally Posted by ray View Post
    it is not a prediction, it is not a straw.
    You are right. It is pure Bull.
    the date coincides with Maya calendar.
    So what?
    Mayas were not feeble minded, if you have studied their calendar.
    No one has said they were. It's the people making doomsday predictions that are feeble minded or charletans, and the prople who believe them who ARE feeble minded.

    They did not predict doomsday, but the end of a cycle that strangely enough coincides with precession cycle.
    The beginning or end of a precession cycle? When did the cycle start? At what point in the sky does the pole point at the start or end?
    They knew more then astrophysicists,
    That is total bullshit. Apparently you haven't been paying attention for the last century.
    they see an alignment: that matter should be investigated seriously.
    Again, What alignment? There is no alignment of any signifigance on that date.
    BB theory has been written 43 centuries before Lemaitre and Penrose. Fancy that!
    What does Big Bang theory have to do with this doomsday crap?
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    Quote Originally Posted by MeteorWayne View Post
    It is pure1) Bull.
    2) when did the cycle start?
    That is total 1)bullshit.
    2)What alignment?
    ...Big Bang theory 2) have to do with this doomsday 1)crap?
    hi meteor,
    1) is your nick the short- form of meteorism?
    2) you should do your homework before posting
    Edit: bold added to highlight foul language, colour added to highlight ignorance
    Last edited by ray; October 13th, 2011 at 08:08 AM.
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    The alignment is explained here:
    What is the Galactic Alignment?
    The Galactic Alignment is the alignment of the December solstice sun with the Galactic equator. This alignment occurs as a result of the precession of the equinoxes.
    Precession is caused by the earth wobbling very slowly on its axis and shifts the position of the equinoxes and solstices one degree every 71.5 years. Because the sun is one-half of a degree wide, it will take the December solstice sun 36 years to precess through the Galactic equator (see diagram below).
    The precise alignment of the solstice point (the precise center-point of the body of the sun as viewed from earth) with the Galactic equator was calculated to occur in 1998 (Jean Meeus, Mathematical Astronomy Morsels, 1997).
    Thus, the Galactic Alignment "zone" is 1998 +/- 18 years = 1980 - 2016. This is "era-2012."
    Notice that the peak of the alignment was in 1998. Nothing much happened, and there is nothing special about 2012.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ray View Post
    .Mayas were not feeble minded, if you have studied their calendar.
    I haven't studied their calendar. According to what you have writtne that means they are feeble minded. Fancy that!
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    Quote Originally Posted by ray View Post
    hi meteor,
    1) is your nick the short- form of meteorism?
    2) you should do your homework before posting
    No, my nick is because I am one of a few hundred meteor observers in the world.

    That means I am a serious scientist, and I ALWAYS do my homework before posting, don't just make stuff up and HIGHLIGHT it in COLORS to PRETEND it has some value. I don't need to. Apparently, you do.
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  18. #17  
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpeedFreek View Post
    People will clutch at any straw .
    Thanks, Harold, you are great , as usual!

    Now speed it is not a straw, it is a giant sequoia. Isn' it amazing that ignorant primitives, aborigines knew more than you, meteor [belching excrements], janus, ophiolite ...etc?
    isn't it amazing they could 'long count' the precession cycle withouth a telescope or even specs? say something sensible , for once, please

    btw: could you explain to meteor and ophiolite what is long count?

    P.S. meteor, you do not deserve another post, a 'serious scientist' doesn't use your language; red colour highligths your ignorance. You don't know what you are talking about.do some homework.

    Edit: btw2, Speed, you know English, be kind please, explain to ophiolite the meaning of " ab origine' s," advise him a) on good dictionaries (Oxford is not bad) and b) on putting a foot wrong in the country and c) doing some homework before starting a discussion
    Last edited by ray; October 13th, 2011 at 04:08 AM.
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    Ray, I live in the countryside and take regular walks there. From time to time I find I have stepped in something unpleasant. I then have to invest time in removing it from my footwear and generally cleaning up. It's not a pleasant job, but it has to be done, or else friends and family would come to believe that one likes shit.

    Now, to your contributions on this thread.

    1. You need to learn to write with more precision. Ambiguity is not a good thing in scientific discussion and your writing abounds with it. For example, your refer to aborigene (sic) people. Generally, in English, when we refer to aborigines we mean the Australian aborigine. Is that what you meant? Sometimes, in a more scholarly setting, we would use it for the indigenous people of a a region. In this context you may have meant the Maya. Of course it would be unusual to see the word misspelt in a scholarly setting, hence further confusion.

    2. You describe the aborigines as ingorant and primitive. The implication is that this is how meteor, myself and janus see them. You might wish to take a short course in logical fallacies. You will then be able to name the logical fallacy you have employed here.

    3. You have made repeated claims that MeteorWayne has not done his homework and does not know what he is talking about. These are perfectly reasonable things to say in a scientific context. Research papers are awash with such allegations, though normally phrased with much more elegance and subtlety - perhaps those aren't your strong points. However, in those scientific contexts the allegations are always backed up with detailed evidence. That seems to be lacking in your case. Perhaps intellectual rigour is another area you fall down in.

    4. In this thread your contributions have been mainly armwaving and word salad. Would you like to make a positive contribution in which you lay out your thesis clearly and concisely? Or would you prefer to avoid anything sensible and scientific? If I'm holding my breath it's only to avoid breathing in the 'countryside perfume'.
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  20. #19  
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    Ray, the galactic alignment occurred well over 10 years ago - we are now heading away from that alignment.

    Now, I don't know where you got the idea I was questioning the scientific principles behind the Mayan calendar - the Mayans were a pretty advanced society it is true.

    All I am questioning is how some modern, feeble minded humans are predicting yet another a doomsday scenario, this time due to a supposed correlation between the Mayan calendar "turning over" in 2012, and a galactic alignment that actually occurred in 1998.

    There is no correlation between the two things, except in the minds of the tin-foil hat brigade. Are you a member?
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  21. #20  
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpeedFreek View Post
    People will clutch at any straw....
    Quote Originally Posted by ray View Post
    it is not a straw. the date coincides with Maya calendar!
    Quote Originally Posted by SpeedFreek View Post
    ..., I don't know where you got the idea I was questioning the scientific principles ...
    I hoped you'd say something sensible, speed! can you see where I got the idea?.
    You are sneezing at the fact that mesoamerican aborigines [hope somebody bought a dictionary in the meanwhile] could calculate, before Isaac and Keplero where born, a cycle of 23000 years with an error [if it is an error] of 5 years [if they are referring to end of alignment, as I imagine]. are you not amazed? I am.
    Am I the feeble-minded.?
    Please, be kind, explain briefly to our great scientists who don't know Sgr A* but know only about cow/bull dung, what is long count.
    Edit: 25920 years,[ if it is an error], please explainl meteor the long count expires anyway in 2012, ask him to do some homework before posting, please, I beg you, you do that, he does not deserve another post
    Last edited by ray; October 13th, 2011 at 08:33 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ray View Post
    P.S. meteor, you do not deserve another post, a 'serious scientist' doesn't use your language; red colour highligths your ignorance. You don't know what you are talking about.do some homework.

    Edit: btw2, Speed, you know English, be kind please, explain to ophiolite the meaning of " ab origine' s," advise him a) on good dictionaries (Oxford is not bad) and b) on putting a foot wrong in the country and c) doing some homework before starting a discussion
    It was YOU who inserted the colors and bold when you quoted my reply in post # 13, you disinngenuous twit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ray View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SpeedFreek View Post
    People will clutch at any straw....
    Quote Originally Posted by ray View Post
    it is not a straw. the date coincides with Maya calendar!
    Quote Originally Posted by SpeedFreek View Post
    ..., I don't know where you got the idea I was questioning the scientific principles ...
    I hoped you'd say something sensible, speed! can you see where I got the idea?.
    You are sneezing at the fact that mesoamerican aborigines [hope somebody bought a dictionary in the meanwhile] could calculate, before Isaac and Keplero where born, a cycle of 23000 years with an error [if it is an error] of 5 years [if they are referring to end of alignment, as I imagine]. are you not amazed? I am.
    Am I the feeble-minded.?
    Please, be kind, explain briefly to our great scientists who don't know Sgr A* but know only about cow/bull dung, what is long count.
    If you had done YOUR homework, you would know the precession cycle is 26,000 years, not 23,000 years, but I suppose it's hard to research actual facts when all you do is wave your arms...
    So your (and therefore the Mayans) error was about 3000 years
    Last edited by MeteorWayne; October 13th, 2011 at 10:28 AM. Reason: typo in the word research
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    Quote Originally Posted by ray View Post
    Edit: btw2, Speed, you know English, be kind please, explain to ophiolite the meaning of " ab origine' s," advise him a) on good dictionaries (Oxford is not bad) and b) on putting a foot wrong in the country and c) doing some homework before starting a discussion
    This is close to unintelligible, however:
    1. In your original post your spelling of aborigine was incorrect. (You should have done your homework.)
    2. I am fully aware of the meanings (note the plural) of aborigine. (I have done my homework.)
    3. Splitting the word, as you have done, as ab origine suggests you have fallen victim to what The American Heritage dictionary calls folk etymology. (You should have done your homework.)
    4. I already possess the unabridged version of the Oxford dictionary. (I always do my homework.)
    5. The 'foot in the wrong country' was offered as one interpretation of your ambiguous and vague statements. (You really should have done your homework on clear writing styles.)
    6. There is no evidence that you have done any form of homework on anything you have posted. You seem to be nothing more than an annoying and ignorant troll. Post something of substance to convince me otherwise. (But do your homework first.)
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  25. #24  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ray View Post
    Am I the feeble-minded.?
    Well, that all depends on whether you think the date 21.12.2012 is significant, and for what reason.
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  26. #25  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ray View Post
    what does it mean when they say that on 21.12.2112 our orbit will be aligned with center of Galaxy?)
    Quote Originally Posted by SpeedFreek View Post
    People will clutch at any straw in order to impose a significance to the date 21.12.2012. Why? Because some feeble minded humans need....
    Quote Originally Posted by SpeedFreek View Post
    Well, that all depends on whether you think the date 21.12.2012 is significant, and for what reason.
    I am still waiting ... when you say something sensible
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  27. #26  
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    Okay then, to recap for you Ray:

    It doesn't mean anything when "they" say our orbit will be aligned with the centre of the galaxy on 21.12.2012. It is nonsense. The alignment "they" are referring to has already occurred. "They" have no scientific basis for their claims.

    So, who are "they", and why are "they" making this claim? What is the significance of the claim?

    And much as you hate them, here is another link for you to read through:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_phenomenon#Galactic_alignment


    Note that the Mayans themselves made absolutely no claims about any galactic alignment. These claims have been attached to the end of the long count by modern feeble minded humans.
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    hi speed, I told you I like you, you are a nice bloke, you are good mannered, you do not use foul language. That's why I keep talking to you. But I am still waiting for you to tell something sensible. I showed the posts:
    I asked: what is this alignment [at the end of precession cycle, long count, that Mayas predict]? and you answer "they" are stupid chickens.This is absurd. I did not mention doomsday. FIRST SILLY MISTAKE
    Then you say: these idiots [doomsday chickens] are cluthcing at a straw [Maya calendar] and I correct you SECOND SM: it is not a straw, and then you keep arguing wide of the mark , and then conclude "I do not question Maya scientific principles" it is not a straw ABOUT-FRONT:[probably in between you did some homework and discovered the immense wisdom of these aborigines]
    And then you concluded THIRD SM it depends on what "you-ray" think. But I never mentioned doomsday. and now you continue this rambling about "they" FOURTH SM
    I (said [implied: for cultured people] that Mayas predict an alignment on 2012) asked what it is, Harold explained it clearly. full stop. Period. Edit:There is no discussion
    I you want to say something sensible, say you are sorry you made all this confusion.
    Last edited by ray; October 15th, 2011 at 01:51 AM.
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  29. #28  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ray View Post
    hi speed, I told you I like you, you are a nice bloke, you are good mannered, you do not use foul language. .
    Hi ray. I don't like you. You use a style called passive-aggressive - it's nasty and anti-social. you refuse to answer direct questions. You refuse to declare your beliefs on points central to the discussion. You imply things then criticise others for seeing that implication. All in all you seem to be a very unpleasant character: manipulative, deceitful and snide.

    The Mayans did not predict an alignment in 2012. If you claim they did please provide the evidence to support the claim.

    The Mayans likely did not understand the precessions, nor were able to quantify them. If you think you have evidence that they did then present it here.

    State clearly whether or not you expect something unusually dramatic at the time of what you claim is predicted alignement.
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  30. #29  
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    all right, Ophiolite, Meteor I like you too. I was joking, I wanted to show you how good manners, irony can be more effective than insults. I was joking with speed too, but that is a standing joke an he knows and, I hope, doesn't mind. If , in future, you want a discussion with me, please be polite and be willing , sometimes, to say oops, sorry, I put my foot in [not on] it.
    if you agree, we can avoid childish wrangles. bye
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    Well you said all right Ophiolite, but you did not address his clearly articulated questions, which is why we get frustrated with your modus operendi.
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    21/12/2012 is a good day for a haircut I guess. Gonna need a trim for the holidays. I imagine some ancient Mayan scribe chipping away at his calendar when his wife called him away to dinner or some such. Then having a heart attack or being eaten by a leopard on the way back to the office and never finishing that danged calendar project.
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    It was finished, its just that they never saw the need to create another calender after the end of that one.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ray View Post
    all right, Ophiolite, Meteor I like you too. I was joking, I wanted to show you how good manners, irony can be more effective than insults. I was joking with speed too, but that is a standing joke an he knows and, I hope, doesn't mind. If , in future, you want a discussion with me, please be polite and be willing , sometimes, to say oops, sorry, I put my foot in [not on] it.
    if you agree, we can avoid childish wrangles. bye
    I do mind. Every time you accuse me of not being sensible, I am deeply insulted. I will not apologise for anything I have said, as it is completely obvious to everyone what your agenda is here.
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