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View Poll Results: Should We Talk To ALIENS?

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Thread: Should We Talk To ALIENS?

  1. #1 Should We Talk To ALIENS? 
    Forum Sophomore Alex-The Great's Avatar
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    I would Love to start a discussion on this topic.............
    Here's my first article on what Stephen Hawkings says on this subject....................


    "THE aliens are out there and Earth had better watch out, at least according to Stephen Hawking. He has suggested that extraterrestrials are almost certain to exist — but that instead of seeking them out, humanity should be doing all it that can to avoid any contact.

    The suggestions come in a new documentary series in which Hawking, one of the world’s leading scientists, will set out his latest thinking on some of the universe’s greatest mysteries.

    Alien life, he will suggest, is almost certain to exist in many other parts of the universe: not just in planets, but perhaps in the centre of stars or even floating in interplanetary space.

    Hawking’s logic on aliens is, for him, unusually simple. The universe, he points out, has 100 billion galaxies, each containing hundreds of millions of stars. In such a big place, Earth is unlikely to be the only planet where life has evolved.

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    “To my mathematical brain, the numbers alone make thinking about aliens perfectly rational,” he said. “The real challenge is to work out what aliens might actually be like.”

    The answer, he suggests, is that most of it will be the equivalent of microbes or simple animals — the sort of life that has dominated Earth for most of its history.

    One scene in his documentary for the Discovery Channel shows herds of two-legged herbivores browsing on an alien cliff-face where they are picked off by flying, yellow lizard-like predators. Another shows glowing fluorescent aquatic animals forming vast shoals in the oceans thought to underlie the thick ice coating Europa, one of the moons of Jupiter.

    Such scenes are speculative, but Hawking uses them to lead on to a serious point: that a few life forms could be intelligent and pose a threat. Hawking believes that contact with such a species could be devastating for humanity.

    He suggests that aliens might simply raid Earth for its resources and then move on: “We only have to look at ourselves to see how intelligent life might develop into something we wouldn’t want to meet. I imagine they might exist in massive ships, having used up all the resources from their home planet. Such advanced aliens would perhaps become nomads, looking to conquer and colonise whatever planets they can reach.”

    He concludes that trying to make contact with alien races is “a little too risky”. He said: “If aliens ever visit us, I think the outcome would be much as when Christopher Columbus first landed in America, which didn’t turn out very well for the Native Americans.”

    The completion of the documentary marks a triumph for Hawking, now 68, who is paralysed by motor neurone disease and has very limited powers of communication. The project took him and his producers three years, during which he insisted on rewriting large chunks of the script and checking the filming.

    John Smithson, executive producer for Discovery, said: “He wanted to make a programme that was entertaining for a general audience as well as scientific and that’s a tough job, given the complexity of the ideas involved.”

    Hawking has suggested the possibility of alien life before but his views have been clarified by a series of scientific breakthroughs, such as the discovery, since 1995, of more than 450 planets orbiting distant stars, showing that planets are a common phenomenon.

    So far, all the new planets found have been far larger than Earth, but only because the telescopes used to detect them are not sensitive enough to detect Earth-sized bodies at such distances.

    Another breakthrough is the discovery that life on Earth has proven able to colonise its most extreme environments. If life can survive and evolve there, scientists reason, then perhaps nowhere is out of bounds.

    Hawking’s belief in aliens places him in good scientific company. In his recent Wonders of the Solar System BBC series, Professor Brian Cox backed the idea, too, suggesting Mars, Europa and Titan, a moon of Saturn, as likely places to look.

    Similarly, Lord Rees, the astronomer royal, warned in a lecture earlier this year that aliens might prove to be beyond human understanding.

    “I suspect there could be life and intelligence out there in forms we can’t conceive,” he said. “Just as a chimpanzee can’t understand quantum theory, it could be there are aspects of reality that are beyond the capacity of our brains.”

    Stephen Hawking's Universe begins on the Discovery Channel on Sunday May 9 at 9pm"


    "Universe is not as weird as you think it is weirder than you can ever,ever think"- Ophiolite(My Grandpa)
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  3. #2  
    Veracity Vigilante inow's Avatar
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    It's a good idea to cite your source. It's also much easier to read:

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle7107207.ece


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  4. #3  
    Forum Sophomore Alex-The Great's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    It's a good idea to cite your source. It's also much easier to read:

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle7107207.ece
    ok by the way what do u think of this topic?
    "Universe is not as weird as you think it is weirder than you can ever,ever think"- Ophiolite(My Grandpa)
    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
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  5. #4  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    I was always nervous about trying to contact our neighbours until we learn if they are members of the local Chamber of Commerce, or drug dealers.

    I see that Hawking, despite his brilliance, has made the elmentary mistake of extrapolating from a sample size of one. Shame on him.
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  6. #5  
    Forum Sophomore Alex-The Great's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    I was always nervous about trying to contact our neighbours until we learn if they are members of the local Chamber of Commerce, or drug dealers.

    I see that Hawking, despite his brilliance, has made the elmentary mistake of extrapolating from a sample size of one. Shame on him.
    ok Granpa im on your side......... can you please poll in your views ........... whether we should talk to aliens or no....................
    "Universe is not as weird as you think it is weirder than you can ever,ever think"- Ophiolite(My Grandpa)
    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
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  7. #6  
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    I think there's a good chance aliens would not be perfectly unified in their outlook. The same planet might produce both drug dealers and upstanding members of the chamber of commerce.


    Either way, we don't have to worry about it until distance/C years after the signal is sent. Not unless they have time travel technology, anyway. I doubt there are any aliens lurking around Proxima Centauri.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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  8. #7  
    Veracity Vigilante inow's Avatar
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    I look at this a different way. If these aliens truly have nefarious intent, how is not talking to them going to prevent them from engaging in the same behaviors? At least by talking there is the chance of diplomacy. Even if it fails, it offers more of a chance than not talking at all.
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  9. #8  
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    Good point. And if we're lucky enough to get heard by their scientific community, they'll probably bring us to the attention of a responsible government of some kind, which would make it harder for any space pirates to act against us.

    At present, my favorite theory of aliens is that they don't engage us because the Earth has been classified as a wild life preserve.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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  10. #9  
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    I can't see any logical reason for NOT wanting to communicate with them.

    Any civilization capable of traveling the vast distances required to get here to Earth, would most definitely have the ability to fabricate or acquire any and all the resources they need. There would be NOTHING that they could want from Earth that they can't get elsewhere.

    The only reason I can think that aliens would visit our planet is to study us. Perhaps we are an experiment. Perhaps they want to learn more about social development and change which occurs within a maturing species. Who knows? But I doubt that they would be out to kill/harm us. I also think that any advanced race would not care about the survival of it's own species, but rather life itself.
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  11. #10  
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    Moot point, we've been yelling out into the cosmos since the beginning of radio broadcast, not to mention the EM pulse of nuclear detonations. Oh yeah, who's going to "run out" and catch Voyager?
    I was some of the mud that got to sit up and look around.
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  12. #11  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    I look at this a different way. If these aliens truly have nefarious intent, how is not talking to them going to prevent them from engaging in the same behaviors? At least by talking there is the chance of diplomacy. Even if it fails, it offers more of a chance than not talking at all.
    My ancestors, of whom I am inordinately proud, were small, nocturnal shrew like animals. They were nervous, cautious and careful in their daily lives. They kept out of the way of the rather dominant dinosaurs. Many of my relatives were eaten by dinosaurs.

    Eventually this caution paid off and when their great-great-etc grand children had figured out the benefits of tools and fire, then was the time to stick our heads above the parapets. Now, on an interstellar level, is not the time for such behaviour. Heads down, ears up, eyes alert, but quiet as a church mouse, or a Cretaceous shrew.
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  13. #12  
    Veracity Vigilante inow's Avatar
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    So, in other words, when aliens come it will be equivalent to a large comet which will kill all but the small nocturnal animals who live in caves and holes?
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  14. #13  
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    Quote Originally Posted by GiantEvil
    Moot point, we've been yelling out into the cosmos since the beginning of radio broadcast, not to mention the EM pulse of nuclear detonations. Oh yeah, who's going to "run out" and catch Voyager?
    Whispering actually, not yelling. Too faint to even be heard at alpha Centauri.
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  15. #14  
    Forum Sophomore Alex-The Great's Avatar
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    if the aliens come and lend their superior technology to us in response of our arecibo message then it could be of good use..........
    what say folks? :-D
    "Universe is not as weird as you think it is weirder than you can ever,ever think"- Ophiolite(My Grandpa)
    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
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  16. #15  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rickz2020

    The only reason I can think that aliens would visit our planet is to study us. Perhaps we are an experiment. Perhaps they want to learn more about social development and change which occurs within a maturing species. Who knows? But I doubt that they would be out to kill/harm us. I also think that any advanced race would not care about the survival of it's own species, but rather life itself.
    I bet there are a lot of space environmentalists out there, especially when you consider how rare good, habitable, environments are in space. Who knows? Maybe they even have endangered species laws?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex-The Great
    if the aliens come and lend their superior technology to us in response of our arecibo message then it could be of good use..........
    what say folks? :-D
    I think it would be very foolish of the aliens to share any of their technology with us. We're a bunch of savages who still engage in inter tribal warfare even in the face of our own nuclear weapons. We can't even handle the tech we already have. Why would they want to arm us by showing us how to build better technology? Wouldn't they worry we might turn our new guns back on them? (I don't know why I used the word "might". It's a virtual certainty.)

    As long as we don't have the ability to leave our own solar system, we're harmless. We can be as hateful, moronic, and dangerous to each other as we want, and they're safe from it all.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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  17. #16  
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    when you consider how rare good, habitable, environments are in space.
    Umm. Sorry, but how do you know this? We've discovered what, 500+ extrasolar planets?

    Our space exploration is so primitive. There could be, and probably is, billions of hospitable planets out there. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there is - but to claim that there is not, is silly.

    If you can show me why "good, habitable" environments in space are so rare, I'd love to read about it.

    Regards,

    Rich.
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  18. #17  
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    kojax wrote:

    "I think it would be very foolish of the aliens to share any of their technology with us. We're a bunch of savages who still engage in inter tribal warfare even in the face of our own nuclear weapons. We can't even handle the tech we already have. Why would they want to arm us by showing us how to build better technology? Wouldn't they worry we might turn our new guns back on them? (I don't know why I used the word "might". It's a virtual certainty.)

    As long as we don't have the ability to leave our own solar system, we're harmless. We can be as hateful, moronic, and dangerous to each other as we want, and they're safe from it all.+

    That's EXACTLY the point of the classic 1951 Sci-Fi movie "The Day the Earth Stood Still"

    No flashy special effects, just an important message, that everyone reading this thread should see.

    Next time it's on TV, I'll post it here.

    Wayne

    Edited to make it clear what I was replying to...
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  19. #18  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rickz2020
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    when you consider how rare good, habitable, environments are in space.
    Umm. Sorry, but how do you know this? We've discovered what, 500+ extrasolar planets?

    Our space exploration is so primitive. There could be, and probably is, billions of hospitable planets out there. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there is - but to claim that there is not, is silly.

    If you can show me why "good, habitable" environments in space are so rare, I'd love to read about it.

    Regards,

    Rich.

    I was just basing off the number of things that have to come together, and admittedly I was only thinking of life as we know it. Different biologies might thrive in different environments, so there might be quite a few worlds where intelligent life could emerge.

    However, the number of planets out there that work for you, as a human being, who need to keep your body temperature near 98 degrees at all times, accustomed to breathing a specific mix of Oxygen, CO2, Nitrogen... etc at 1 ATM, and likely to lose bone mass over time if you're subjected to gravities substantially smaller than 1g, ....... that would have to be a small number.

    If aliens' biology is anywhere near as finicky as ours, there's probably a very narrow range of planets they would consider "habitable" also.

    Quote Originally Posted by MeteorWayne
    That's EXACTLY the point of the classic 1951 Sci-Fi movie "The Day the Earth Stood Still"

    No flashy special effects, just an important message, that everyone reading this thread should see.

    Next time it's on TV, I'll post it here.

    Wayne
    Do you consider the recent remake with Keanu Reeves to be an adequate alternative?
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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  20. #19  
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Quote Originally Posted by MeteorWayne
    That's EXACTLY the point of the classic 1951 Sci-Fi movie "The Day the Earth Stood Still"

    No flashy special effects, just an important message, that everyone reading this thread should see.

    Next time it's on TV, I'll post it here.

    Wayne
    Do you consider the recent remake with Keanu Reeves to be an adequate alternative?
    No actually I found it an uwatchable piece of SGI bombarded garbage

    Edit:

    The earlier B&W movie focused on the message, not special effects. That's why it's a "classic"
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  21. #20  
    Forum Sophomore Alex-The Great's Avatar
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    yup......... :| why is it that even after searching the galaxy for about more than 2 centuries we haven't found any planet smaller or equivalent to earth in size where we could find life ???? :?
    "Universe is not as weird as you think it is weirder than you can ever,ever think"- Ophiolite(My Grandpa)
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  22. #21  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex-The Great
    yup......... :| why is it that even after searching the galaxy for about more than 2 centuries we haven't found any planet smaller or equivalent to earth in size where we could find life ???? :?
    It's only the last 23 years we've even had the means to detect them, and then we could only detect really big ones like Jupiter sized or larger. Right now I don't think our methods would allow us to see a planet as small as Earth even if we were looking straight at the star it was orbiting.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraso...ed_discoveries
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  23. #22  
    Forum Sophomore Alex-The Great's Avatar
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    i would love to encourage more posts on this topic........ :-D
    "Universe is not as weird as you think it is weirder than you can ever,ever think"- Ophiolite(My Grandpa)
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  24. #23  
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    The question really breaks down into two parts:
    1) Should we invest money in listening out for aliens and if so how much should we invest?
    2) Should we attempt to contact aliens even before we know they exist, by such devices as radio messages or plaques on spacecraft, and if so how much should be invest?

    To address the investment question we need to consider the probability that life exists elswhere. Numerous programs attacking this from a variety of angles are already in place. Should we spend more? That merits a risk analysis balancing the possible advantages (technology and superior frozen margaritas) against the disadvantages (the end of civilisation and the destruction of humanity) against the cost of assessing these.

    The problem is we have no easy way of assessing these risks. An impasse.

    One thing we could do is look around the solar system, carefully, for signs of any monitoring system left by earlier alien visitors. A modest investment for a program to assess what form such a monitoring system might would be worthwhile.
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  25. #24  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    One thing we could do is look around the solar system, carefully, for signs of any monitoring system left by earlier alien visitors. A modest investment for a program to assess what form such a monitoring system might would be worthwhile.
    We have zero knowledge of any means of communicating data at any speed greater than c, and our best physical theories say that it is impossible. c is way too slow for interstellar distances.

    In short we have not a clue what to look for.

    The money would be better spent on superior margaritas.

    While I would be completely unsurprised if there is no other life in the universe, I would be very surprised if we ever encounter intelligent life (whether humanity constitutes intelligent life is debatable). I suspect that it is quite rare but the universe is very large. Physics may well conspire against interstellar and inter galactic pow wows.

    If any extraterrestrial scientist monitoring this forum has read a post from Farsight or chinglu, I would expect them to by-pass the Earth and search elsewhere for intelligent life (though maybe they would be interested in dolphins).

    I am not all that enamored with Margaritas. Maybe we could invest in good Tenessee sour mash whiskey. One more piece of nonsense from chinglu or Farsight and I may need to crack the bottle a bit early.
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  26. #25  
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    From a political and economic perspective, I'd say that if the mainstream scientific community doesn't gobble that money up somehow, it will go to quack scientists instead. People are too curious to stand by and not do something, and by "do something" I mean throw money at the problem.

    Maybe there's a way the search for alien life could be paired up with some more legitimate kind of inquiry, and then the two projects could..... I don't know.... maybe
    benefit from the same funding?
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  27. #26  
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    That is the idea behind the ATA.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_Telescope_Array

    The Allen Telescope Array (ATA), formerly known as the One Hectare Telescope (1hT), was a joint effort by the SETI Institute and the Radio Astronomy Laboratory (RAL) at the University of California, Berkeley to construct a radio interferometer that is dedicated to astronomical observations and a simultaneous search for extraterrestrial intelligence.

    The ATA is under construction at the Hat Creek Radio Observatory, 290 miles northeast of San Francisco, California. When completed, the array is expected to consist of 350 antennas.[3] The first phase with 42 antennas (ATA-42) is complete and became operational on 11 October 2007. However, in April 2011, the ATA was placed in operational hibernation due to funding shortfalls.
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  28. #27  
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrRocket
    [While I would be completely unsurprised if there is no other life in the universe, I would be very surprised if we ever encounter intelligent life (whether humanity constitutes intelligent life is debatable). I suspect that it is quite rare but the universe is very large.
    Are you really being serious here?
    The bit about "humanity" and "intelligent life" is not the most original statement, or joke for that matter, you have made on this forum.
    I find it amazing that you would be "completely unsurprised if there is no other life in the universe". We do have at least one important piece of evidence-our own planet!
    I can paraphrase a comment made by Richard Feynman when he said if one takes scientists (and here, of course, he included mathematicians) outside of their field of expertise they have the ability to speak, and write, as much nonsense as the rest of us.
    I believe primitive life to be fairly widespread in the universe but I would not be very surprised if we were the only advanced, technological civilisation in our Galaxy.
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  29. #28  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halliday
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRocket
    [While I would be completely unsurprised if there is no other life in the universe, I would be very surprised if we ever encounter intelligent life (whether humanity constitutes intelligent life is debatable). I suspect that it is quite rare but the universe is very large.
    Are you really being serious here?
    The bit about "humanity" and "intelligent life" is not the most original statement, or joke for that matter, you have made on this forum.
    I find it amazing that you would be "completely unsurprised if there is no other life in the universe". We do have at least one important piece of evidence-our own planet!
    I can paraphrase a comment made by Richard Feynman when he said if one takes scientists (and here, of course, he included mathematicians) outside of their field of expertise they have the ability to speak, and write, as much nonsense as the rest of us.
    I believe primitive life to be fairly widespread in the universe but I would not be very surprised if we were the only advanced, technological civilisation in our Galaxy.
    I think he meant:

    "While I would be completely unsurprised if there was other life on the universe".

    That's what the next part of his post seems to imply...
    "Nature doesn't care what we call it, she just does it anyway" - R. Feynman
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  30. #29  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halliday
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRocket
    [While I would be completely unsurprised if there is no other life in the universe, I would be very surprised if we ever encounter intelligent life (whether humanity constitutes intelligent life is debatable). I suspect that it is quite rare but the universe is very large.
    Are you really being serious here?
    The bit about "humanity" and "intelligent life" is not the most original statement, or joke for that matter, you have made on this forum.
    I find it amazing that you would be "completely unsurprised if there is no other life in the universe". We do have at least one important piece of evidence-our own planet!
    I can paraphrase a comment made by Richard Feynman when he said if one takes scientists (and here, of course, he included mathematicians) outside of their field of expertise they have the ability to speak, and write, as much nonsense as the rest of us.
    I believe primitive life to be fairly widespread in the universe but I would not be very surprised if we were the only advanced, technological civilisation in our Galaxy.

    Being unsurprised if there is no other life, does not imply that I would be surprised if there were. I will be very surprised if we contact life in even the far future, just because of the limitations imposed by the speed of light.

    We have zero basis to extrapolate the likelihood or unlikelihood of abiogenesis anywhere other than Earth.

    You, and everyone else, who make positive statements regarding the existence or non-existence of extraterrestrial life are talking through your hat. The plain FACT is that nobody knows, and nobody has a solid scientific basis for ANY prediction.

    Believe anything that you want. You can believe in the Easter Bunny, and with just as much supporting data.
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    What's the consensus on abiogenesis? I mean how many times did it occur independently on Earth? I understand it was a few times, which would give merit to alien life hypotheses.

    And what is life? is it really that complicated or just a bunch of atoms regenerating a pattern.

    In line with Lord Rees' comment in the opening post, Mr Bowie said it best "There's a star man waiting in the sky, he'd like to come and meet us but he thinks he'd blow our mind"
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  32. #31  
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    Quote Originally Posted by pedronaut
    What's the consensus on abiogenesis? I mean how many times did it occur independently on Earth? I understand it was a few times, which would give merit to alien life hypotheses.
    "
    So far as I know the evidence for abiogenesis is a) We're here and b) it is rather unlikely that there was life immediately following the big bang.

    We have no clear mechanistic theory for abiogenesis. We don't know if the seed, whatever it was, arose on Earth or was carried in by meteorites. We don't know if the origin of life on Earth is singular or if several forms arose independently.

    Genetics works well. Evolution seems to be consistent with genetics and the fossil record, but is not a quantitative dynamical model. Abiogenesis is basically a mystery, despite some plausible speculation.

    Hell, if you believe some of the really far-out theories of physics we don't know if there is a real Earth and real life or if this is all a computer simulation (I don't personally buy this one.)

    Bottom line: concensus doesn't mean much given the current state of ignorance.
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  33. #32  
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    It is interesting that Dr. Rocket arrives at this conclusion from the perspective of a background in mathematics and physics. I arrive at an identical conclusion from a background in geology, palaeontology and a deep interest in astronomy and biology.
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  34. #33  
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    There's two sides to the coin. On the one hand, it's usually better assume that those things which are observed to happen happened because they were a reasonably likely outcome of whatever caused them, rather than because they are a fluke. It's not impossible that whatever caused life on Earth was just a one in a trillion chance event the runs against all known laws of probability and won't ever happen again, but it is implausible for it to have been.

    On the other hand, the rest of our own solar system looks to be pretty barren.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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  35. #34  
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    On the other hand, the rest of our own solar system looks to be pretty barren.
    How much of it have you seen?
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  36. #35  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rickz2020
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    On the other hand, the rest of our own solar system looks to be pretty barren.
    How much of it have you seen?
    That depends on what degree of "seeing" you're after. Clearly Mars, Mercury, the Moon, and a number of the moons of Jupiter and Saturn aren't brimming with life. There might be life under the clouds of Titan, or under the ice of Enceladus or Europa.
    Venus's surface has only been directly probed a few times, since even probes don't survive very well in its atmosphere, so there's no way to be totally sure about it. There's no way to rule anything out on the gas giants' surfaces.

    http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/01/et-life/

    If Mars turns out to have microbes in its soil...... I'm still going to go with "pretty barren" as it's classification.
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    It's hard to say what would come of meeting and interacting with an alien species. I wander if our inability to get along with other culture on Earth would be a problem if and when we run into E.T.

    Although if they look anything like this:

    http://www.demotivationalposters.org...1292641970.jpg

    then I think we might be okay. And if not, then I volunteer to be the lone human test subject that is given to them so that they go away.

    :D
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  38. #37  
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    If they wanted to destroy us they could just give us more knowlege.

    If they were to take something, they would probably wait until we built an amazing world first, (by their standards).

    I heard they are here in human form, to GUIDE us to the right path.
    (Please private e-mail me......)
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  39. #38  
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    There's no way to rule anything out on the gas giants' surfaces.
    Other than the absence of surfaces.
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  40. #39  
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    Quote Originally Posted by pedronaut
    And what is life? is it really that complicated or just a bunch of atoms regenerating a pattern.
    I can't give you a technical answer but I think "life" arises when matter combines in certain ways. I know that seems obvious, but what I am saying is there is no magic, or supernatural, ingredient supplied by some outside agency.
    I remember reading an article, somewhere, by an American scientist. I believe it was the biochemist George Wald. Sorry to be so vague here!
    Wald basically said that when conditions allow matter to combine in ever more complex forms one, almost inevitable, outcome is the development of life.
    Altho' I don't have any evidence I also believe that the "necessary conditions" may exist on other planets/places which are not earth-like.
    Despite the apparent views of an earlier poster I would not put Venus into this category. But I suppose almost anything is possible altho' highly unlikely in this instance.
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  41. #40  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    There's no way to rule anything out on the gas giants' surfaces.
    Other than the absence of surfaces.
    I never know how to define that, because there is still expected to be rocky core underneath all that gas. It's very small compared to the size of the atmosphere but it's there.
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  42. #41  
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    There's no way to rule anything out on the gas giants' surfaces.
    Other than the absence of surfaces.
    I never know how to define that, because there is still expected to be rocky core underneath all that gas. It's very small compared to the size of the atmosphere but it's there.
    And that gas might be their atmosphere.............
    "Universe is not as weird as you think it is weirder than you can ever,ever think"- Ophiolite(My Grandpa)
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  43. #42 The surface of the sun. 
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    The surface of the sun.

    http://www.thesurfaceofthesun.com/
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  44. #43  
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    There's no way to rule anything out on the gas giants' surfaces.
    Other than the absence of surfaces.
    I never know how to define that, because there is still expected to be rocky core underneath all that gas. It's very small compared to the size of the atmosphere but it's there.
    The point is you do not go from atmosphere to core. You go from increasingly dense gas and transition into a ligquid at pressures where the distinction between gas and liquid have little meaning.
    Also, we only suspect they have solid cores - estimated at an order of magnitude larger than the Earth. This may be incorrect.

    The surface of the sun.
    This is used in a different context from that used by kojax and has a different meaning.
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  45. #44  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    There's no way to rule anything out on the gas giants' surfaces.
    Other than the absence of surfaces.
    I never know how to define that, because there is still expected to be rocky core underneath all that gas. It's very small compared to the size of the atmosphere but it's there.
    The point is you do not go from atmosphere to core. You go from increasingly dense gas and transition into a ligquid at pressures where the distinction between gas and liquid have little meaning.
    Also, we only suspect they have solid cores - estimated at an order of magnitude larger than the Earth. This may be incorrect.
    In other words, there may not be a surface, or there may be one. Either way, it's probably not the best place to look for life. It could be in the atmosphere and/or liquid areas too, just like how we have fish in the ocean on Earth. (Except the part about needing to be made out of different chemicals and adapted to a very high pressure. )

    I'm just saying there are only a few places left to look if you're after life on a comparable level to Earth. Bacterial microbes could conceivably live almost anywhere, but a large population of macroscopic vegetable or animal (or other kinds of) life is unlikely to exist in most of the solar system.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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  46. #45  
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    Wilkipedia:
    Bacteria are ubiquitous in every habitat on Earth, growing in soil, acidic hot springs, radioactive waste, water, and deep in the Earth's crust, as well as in organic matter and the live bodies of plants and animals.
    If aliens are not close enough for us to reach with current technology, then obviously they are the ones that have to travel here for the Holidays.

    Edited for wording,spelling
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  47. #46  
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    There is another possibility for solid cores of gas giants; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metalli...n#Astrophysics.
    I was some of the mud that got to sit up and look around.
    Lucky me. Lucky mud.
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  48. #47  
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    On the other hand, the rest of our own solar system looks to be pretty barren.
    The varying (with the seasons- high in summer, low in winter) levels of methane concentrated above caves in the Martian surface seems like compelling evidence for life to me- although I accept the possibility that it could just be some kind of geological activity, but why would that vary with the seasons I wonder?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Mars#Methane

    Also, there is a fair degree of possibility of life on Europa- as we know that life exists right at the depths of our own oceans where virtually no sunlight reaches the ocean bed.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_...rrestrial_life
    "Nature doesn't care what we call it, she just does it anyway" - R. Feynman
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  49. #48  
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    Well, the seasonal levels of methane on Mars are evidence of some seasonal process. It doesn't rise to anywhere near the level of compelling evidence of life, though.

    The are plenty of abiotic processes as well that could produce it. Without in situ investigation, or more more specific evidence, it's a tantalizing finding, that's all.

    Wayne
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  50. #49  
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    Bacterial life doesn't necessarily equate the possibility of intelligent alien life, so the prospects for intelligent aliens emerging elsewhere in our own solar system are looking pretty bleak.

    Also, if it happened in a gas giant, the aliens would have to build space vessels capable of maintaining the same level of pressure their biology was accustomed to, as well as figuring out how to escape from a seriously strong gravity well.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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  51. #50  
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    I don't understand you guys.

    Gary Mickennon or whoever hacked into NASA's and the NAVY's database...
    He told his interviewers that there were numerous evident showings of extra terrestrial life, and UFOs. Obviously there is some other life form out there, so I agree with the very first comment, "if you don't believe in aliens, it's silly".

    Going back to the economical situations- even if we did have all of the money, what would we build in order to find new life out there? And yes, we would have to find a planet suitable and adequate for our living capabilities (temp that can keep our bodies 98 degrees and adeqaute breathing apparatus).

    We aren't even sure if we could escape our own solar system due to the strong gravitational pull of our sun. I'm not trying to be a Debbie Downer, but it's definitely not going to happen in our lifetime. The fact that we haven't even stepped foot on Mars is probably why I'm being an asshole right now. But that doesn't mean that UFOs cannot come to us, not saying that they haven't already.

    Instead of using money for space, we should at least explore our own planet first. We have only spent about 30 seconds in the very depths of our own ocean. There are probably little aqua aliens planning to evade the lands of the earth lol.
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  52. #51  
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    [quote]There are probably little aqua aliens planning to evade the lands of the earth lol.[quote]
    Aqua aliens ? Then what have they been doing for so long ..........if there are any?
    Why haven't they attacked us yet..................They could have very well attacked us in our evolution phase when we didn't understand much about tech. or that kind of stuff?........
    "Universe is not as weird as you think it is weirder than you can ever,ever think"- Ophiolite(My Grandpa)
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  53. #52  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex-The Great
    There are probably little aqua aliens planning to evade the lands of the earth lol.
    Aqua aliens ? Then what have they been doing for so long ..........if there are any?
    Why haven't they attacked us yet..................They could have very well attacked us in our evolution phase when we didn't understand much about tech. or that kind of stuff?........
    Either that, or maybe they're still behind us technologically. Why haven't we invaded them yet?
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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  54. #53  
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    Quote Originally Posted by NGCDEAE
    I don't understand you guys.
    That may be because some of us are employing scepticism, scientific methodology, logic and a seasoning of common sense, attributes that seem alien to you. (Are you an alien, by any chance?)

    Quote Originally Posted by NGCDEAE
    Gary Mickennon or whoever hacked into NASA's and the NAVY's database...
    He told his interviewers that there were numerous evident showings of extra terrestrial life, and UFOs.
    Right. Some dude, who may or may not be called Gary Mickennon, makes a claim, with no substantiating evidence and you just drop your drawers and bend over to accept his wisdom? There is a bridge in Brooklyn I can let you have for $400 bucks.

    Quote Originally Posted by NGCDEAE
    Obviously there is some other life form out there,
    Well, it's obvious as long as you suspend any critical judgement you have.

    Welcome to the forum, by the way.

    Quote Originally Posted by NGCDEAE
    We aren't even sure if we could escape our own solar system due to the strong gravitational pull of our sun.
    No, we are absolutely certain we can do that. A handful of robotic craft are already on their way out of the system. You should try to keep up to date. Just because they were launched before you were born doesn't mean they are not real. The issue is one of time to the nearest habitable planet.


    Quote Originally Posted by NGCDEAE
    There are probably little aqua aliens planning to evade the lands of the earth lol.
    I should think that it would be a very good idea for aqua aliens to evade the land. If they were to invade it they might well dehydrate.

    Welcome to the forum, did I mention that.
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  55. #54  
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    I wonder if he's talking about "USO's"

    A USO is a fun variation on the UFO theme. In USO theories, you have aliens plopping down into the ocean so they can use the water as a heat sink for their nuclear and/or antimatter reactors. You don't really want to use a nuclear reactor in space if you can help it because it generates a lot of heat, and you'd have to find a way to radiate all that heat away, but if you're in the ocean, the heat just transfers to the water.

    So, basically Earth is a popular recharging spot for passing space tourists. All the gift shops are in their underwater cities, and then the aliens come up at night to observe all of us primates doing primate stuff. The rule is they can look, but not touch (after all it *is* a wildlife preserve.) Except every now and again, if they have the proper tags, the interplanetary government will give them permission to carry out an abduction.

    It's a fun story. You could write a lot of good sci fi off of that. It's not quite as good as the Hitchhiker's guide, though.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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  56. #55  
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    Time to move this discussion out of Astonomy and Cosmology. It has entered the toilet swirl zone. IMHO, of course.

    MW
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  57. #56  
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    Don't want that to happen. Let's bring it back on track.

    Speculatively, if we developed superluminal space travel, and SETI picked up a signal from some distant civilization, would we want to A) respond (knowing that signal is millions of years old), or B) Ignore it and try and steer clear of that area of space because we know they learned the technology to use radio waves millions of years ago?

    Without some form of backwards time travel, I don't think there's any way an alien culture could notice our attempts to communicate in the course of the near future, is there?
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  58. #57  
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    A lot of people use that now famous reasoning to estimate the likelihood of life in the galaxy ( billions of stars, a percentage of which have planets, a percentage of which are in the correct orbit, etc, etc. ). They don't take the time window into account.
    Earth has been around for 4 billion years. Has had some form of life for close to 3 billion, but mammalian primates didn't develop until 50 million years ago, and homonid primates, until 200000 years ago. It was only about 8000 years ago that we first built cities in present day Iraq ( Sumer ) and only the last 80 years that we've been broadcasting EM radiation all over the cosmos.
    This means that for 99.9999998% of the time earth has been in existence it hasn't had a civilization, just fauna.
    This means that for 99.999999998% of the time earth has existed, it has been sending signals out into interstellar space by which another civilization might detect us. Unfortunately these signals are only 80 light years into their journey and the number of stars in that radius is not billions but 6 or 7 orders of magnitude less.

    This means our chances of being found, and conversely our chance of finding another advanced civilization out there, are vastly smaller than the original reasoning indicates.

    Besides, aliens seem kind of weird...

    She came from planet Clare
    I know she came from there,
    she drove a Plymouth Satellite
    faster than the speed of light.

    Planet Clare has pink air
    all the trees are red,
    no-one ever dies there
    no-one has a head.

    Planet Clare- B52s circa 1980s
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  59. #58 ET phone home 
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    I believe humanity would benefit from dialog with extra-terrestrial civilizations. Sequestered populations benefit from contact with more advanced societies. Amazon rain forest people or Amish communities are not empowered by their isolation. Communication is one of the foundations upon which civilization rests. Limiting our communications options would seem detrimental.
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  60. #59 Re: ET phone home 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emission Arc
    Amazon rain forest people or Amish communities are not empowered by their isolation.
    Do you feel amazon natives are empowered by their contacts with logging companies? Do you think the Amish would benefit from watching Big Brother and American Idol? Perhaps we have different perceptions of the meaning of benefit and empowerment.
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  61. #60  
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex-The Great
    There are probably little aqua aliens planning to evade the lands of the earth lol.
    Aqua aliens ? Then what have they been doing for so long ..........if there are any?
    Why haven't they attacked us yet..................They could have very well attacked us in our evolution phase when we didn't understand much about tech. or that kind of stuff?........
    Either that, or maybe they're still behind us technologically. Why haven't we invaded them yet?
    Good one kojax...........And i agree with you granpa
    "Universe is not as weird as you think it is weirder than you can ever,ever think"- Ophiolite(My Grandpa)
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  62. #61 Re: ET phone home 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Quote Originally Posted by Emission Arc
    Amazon rain forest people or Amish communities are not empowered by their isolation.
    Do you feel amazon natives are empowered by their contacts with logging companies? Do you think the Amish would benefit from watching Big Brother and American Idol? Perhaps we have different perceptions of the meaning of benefit and empowerment.


    American Indians once faced the same dilemma that South American Indians are now facing. Whether or not to transition toward a new, perhaps not fully understood lifestyle. You wont find a single Indian family still living in stone age conditions here in the USA. It was simply to difficult a life style. They all chose heated homes and Ford pick-up trucks over mud hogons and walking great distances in the rain. Occasionally they gather on holidays to talk about the old ways but none choose to go back and live it. Watching your children starve during drought or die from a simple water born bacteria is not a life most people choose. It was all they knew up to a certain point. Contact with loggers brings with it new possibilities. Indigenous people see certain advantages and slowly work to become more like the advanced culture they're in contact with. The conversion might take several generations to become complete but the process does occur and it occurred because communication between two civilization was achieved (our original topic). Communication is always a good thing.

    As a member of an advanced society I have access to many temptations which I choose not to indulge in. Rather then watch American Idol or smoke pot, I do other things like fly airplanes and drink chocolate milk. More advanced societies offers greater freedom of choice. Amish are free to pick and choose which technologies they interact with. They all choose LED lights over coal oil and they all choose to hire a driver to take them cross country rather then wear out the family horse. Most have phones in the barn but not in the house. The Amish ancestral homeland is Germany. No Amish families survived WW-II. Their non-aggressive behavior did little to empower them. Had it not been for the more advanced societies willingness to fight and die for their freedom of choice, they would now be extinct. Those who survived did so by interacting with a more advanced society by purchasing steamship tickets to the New World. Amish are a society in transition. Their lack of communication (education) makes their lives more difficult. However, that is exactly their design (hard life = godliness). Point is, when it become convenient, all people choose to embrace technology through education; education being a form of communication.
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  63. #62 Re: ET phone home 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emission Arc
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Quote Originally Posted by Emission Arc
    Amazon rain forest people or Amish communities are not empowered by their isolation.
    Do you feel amazon natives are empowered by their contacts with logging companies? Do you think the Amish would benefit from watching Big Brother and American Idol? Perhaps we have different perceptions of the meaning of benefit and empowerment.


    American Indians once faced the same dilemma that South American Indians are now facing. Whether or not to transition toward a new, perhaps not fully understood lifestyle. You wont find a single Indian family still living in stone age conditions here in the USA. It was simply to difficult a life style. They all chose heated homes and Ford pick-up trucks over mud hogons and walking great distances in the rain. Occasionally they gather on holidays to talk about the old ways but none choose to go back and live it.
    To be fair, it's also impossible to live their lifestyle on a reservation. In order to survive by pure hunting and gathering with no agriculture, you need a large range to hunt in.

    Watching your children starve during drought or die from a simple water born bacteria is not a life most people choose. It was all they knew up to a certain point.
    Yeah. Lots of people in Africa are still dying of those diseases, because they can't afford health care. On the one hand, you've got all these traditional tribal groups that want the right to continue living the "old ways", which guarantees they will never be productive. On the other hand, they want amenities that cost money. What can you do? Should everyone in the first world have to put in extra hours at work to pay for that, or should children die horrible deaths from curable afflictions?

    I wonder what it would be like for an alien culture watching us humans die of preventable diseases (possibly including old age).
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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  64. #63 Ebay 
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    I suspect alien civilizations are monitoring conditions here on earth and consider us to be violent, corrupt and unevolved. If an alien ship landed in the USA and it's occupants ask to be taken to Earth's leader, the alien would be killed and parted-out on Ebay!
    Intelligence is a gift, education an accomplishment.
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  65. #64 Re: Ebay 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emission Arc
    I suspect alien civilizations are monitoring conditions here on earth and consider us to be violent, corrupt and unevolved. If an alien ship landed in the USA and it's occupants ask to be taken to Earth's leader, the alien would be killed and parted-out on Ebay!
    No one would believe the story anyway. Even if it was 100% true and the UFO landed on the white house lawn people would still think it's a fake or publicity stunt.

    Astronauts, airline pilots, ex governors, military commanders with top secret clearance, air-force pilots, doctors, guys in-charge of nuclear launch facilities, lawyers, nuclear physicists, ex CIA agents, ex FBI agents, the list goes on... they all claim to either have had direct experiences with technologies not of this earth, Alien encounters and other UFO/Alien related matters. What does this mean? Why would they all be lying? Why risk your entire career? There is more evidence of Alien beings visiting our planet than there is of God, yet more people believe there is a God...
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  66. #65 Re: Ebay 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rickz2020
    Astronauts, airline pilots, ex governors, military commanders with top secret clearance, air-force pilots, doctors, guys in-charge of nuclear launch facilities, lawyers, nuclear physicists, ex CIA agents, ex FBI agents, the list goes on... they all claim to either have had direct experiences with technologies not of this earth, Alien encounters and other UFO/Alien related matters. What does this mean? Why would they all be lying? Why risk your entire career? ...
    Most people are crap at observation. Most excellent observers are crap at observation. Observations that cannot be routinely repeated by a variety of observers in a self consistent manner are crap.

    The only mystery here is the unending gullibility of the human species.
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  67. #66  
    Forum Sophomore Alex-The Great's Avatar
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    your are always right grandpa.............
    "Universe is not as weird as you think it is weirder than you can ever,ever think"- Ophiolite(My Grandpa)
    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
    - Prof. Stephen W. Hawking
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  68. #67 Re: Ebay 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Quote Originally Posted by Rickz2020
    Astronauts, airline pilots, ex governors, military commanders with top secret clearance, air-force pilots, doctors, guys in-charge of nuclear launch facilities, lawyers, nuclear physicists, ex CIA agents, ex FBI agents, the list goes on... they all claim to either have had direct experiences with technologies not of this earth, Alien encounters and other UFO/Alien related matters. What does this mean? Why would they all be lying? Why risk your entire career? ...
    Most people are crap at observation. Most excellent observers are crap at observation. Observations that cannot be routinely repeated by a variety of observers in a self consistent manner are crap.

    The only mystery here is the unending gullibility of the human species.
    Umm. I'm not talking about things floating miles high in the sky. I'm talking about craft parked in hangers, reversed engineered devices, testimonies made by credible people, top secret documents and manipulation of photo's by NASA. Even astronauts have come forward...

    The only mystery here is the unending ignorance and willingness to jump to conclusions of the human species.
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  69. #68 Re: Ebay 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rickz2020
    Umm. I'm not talking about things floating miles high in the sky. I'm talking about craft parked in hangers, reversed engineered devices, testimonies made by credible people, top secret documents and manipulation of photo's by NASA. Even astronauts have come forward...

    The only mystery here is the unending ignorance and willingness to jump to conclusions of the human species.
    You are talking about unsubstantiated rumour. More than that you use a deliberately dishonest technique in this quote that calls into question your aganda and sincerity. The sentence structure above implies that astronauts have talked of 'craft parked in hangars'. They have not.

    There are a host of other subtle little cheats in your post that place you in a rather unattractive category. Present here the two best pieces of evidence you are aware of and lets see how they stand up to the light of day.
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  70. #69  
    Forum Sophomore Alex-The Great's Avatar
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    i propose.........He's gone blank grandpa....say something..a..Rickz2020.......
    "Universe is not as weird as you think it is weirder than you can ever,ever think"- Ophiolite(My Grandpa)
    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
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  71. #70 earth has had contact with aliens 
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    has anyone read the day after rosdale, by philip J corso.
    some goverments have admitted to aliens existence already. they just did not make it very public, so only those who really looked for it knew it. i was lucky i know someone who did do so.
    but anyway, that book is a true story about an American intelligence officer who worked with aliens.
    i have checkesd it out and its definetly a true story.

    p.s. if the goverment did not want to allow the knowledge of aliens to be public, why did they allow him to write that book?? even if he did not print a massive amount of copies.
    (check it out though, it is the best book you would ever read!!!!!!!!!!)
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  72. #71  
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    and ther was reverse enginerneered alien devices. read the book, it provides proof to these so called theories
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  73. #72  
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    thanks lewis pratt.....
    "Universe is not as weird as you think it is weirder than you can ever,ever think"- Ophiolite(My Grandpa)
    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
    - Prof. Stephen W. Hawking
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  74. #73  
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    The possibility that people almost always leave out when they talk about government wanting to "cover up" the existence of aliens is.... maybe the aliens are really powerful. Maybe they contacted those governments and made their intentions known. Maybe those governments are simply smart enough not to want to fight a war they can't win.

    If I were an advanced alien who found Earth and wanted to harvest its resources, I wouldn't attack it with a military force and risk damaging those resources, nor would I inform the population of my presence. I'd use my super advanced computers to analyze the stock market, find a master model for investment, go down and sell a few bricks of gold for seed money to get the stock profits rolling in, and then buy those resources directly out of their economy, packaged and ready to ship.

    Why make humanity into slaves, when you can just pay a bunch of smiling workers to do everything you want with unlimited amounts of money they don't know you didn't earn?
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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  75. #74  
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    I wish people would stop putting all those fake UFO sightings videos on YouTube.
    It should be illegal to do that.
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  76. #75  
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    One should never speak to an alien unless properly introduced.
    The universe is a real place. However, you can't see it, you have to imagine it. Like it or not, God designed, built and sustains the Universe. Deal with it.
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  77. #76  
    Comet Dust Collector Moderator
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    ESPECIALLY Vogons...

    And wear ear protection
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