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Thread: Expanding Universe

  1. #1 Expanding Universe 
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    Im really confused by the big bang. There saying it's an expansion not an explosion.
    If it's an expanding universe then the galaxys would expand in to each other. Fact! Expanding like a baloon? baloon has only a surface.
    With a baloon the dots are getting bigger too. If you saying everything is expanding as in getting bigger too then so is the instrument that you used to detect this is expanding (getting bigger) too.

    It's all about what "direction" the galaxys are moving. It's 3 Dimensional, and not a baloon surface.

    So it must be an explosion.
    But there saying there is no center to it.

    Im new to science really. Ive read that the evidance of the big bang comes from the idea of "Red Shift", could it be that the universe is not expanding and red shift comes from the colors of light traveling at different speeds, giving us a "Red Shift effect?"


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  3. #2 Re: Expanding Universe 
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    Quote Originally Posted by griffithsuk
    Im really confused by the big bang. There saying it's an expansion not an explosion.
    If it's an expanding universe then the galaxys would expand in to each other. Fact! Expanding like a baloon? baloon has only a surface.
    With a baloon the dots are getting bigger too. If you saying everything is expanding as in getting bigger too then so is the instrument that you used to detect this is expanding (getting bigger) too.

    It's all about what "direction" the galaxys are moving. It's 3 Dimensional, and not a baloon surface.

    So it must be an explosion.
    But there saying there is no center to it.

    Im new to science really. Ive read that the evidance of the big bang comes from the idea of "Red Shift", could it be that the universe is not expanding and red shift comes from the colors of light traveling at different speeds, giving us a "Red Shift effect?"
    Yes, you are confused.

    No, to everything else.

    Read a book.


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  4. #3 Re: Expanding Universe 
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    Quote Originally Posted by griffithsuk
    Im really confused by the big bang. There saying it's an expansion not an explosion.
    If it's an expanding universe then the galaxys would expand in to each other. Fact! Expanding like a baloon? baloon has only a surface.
    With a baloon the dots are getting bigger too. If you saying everything is expanding as in getting bigger too then so is the instrument that you used to detect this is expanding (getting bigger) too.

    It's all about what "direction" the galaxys are moving. It's 3 Dimensional, and not a baloon surface.

    So it must be an explosion.
    But there saying there is no center to it.

    Im new to science really. Ive read that the evidance of the big bang comes from the idea of "Red Shift", could it be that the universe is not expanding and red shift comes from the colors of light traveling at different speeds, giving us a "Red Shift effect?"
    By reading your post somehow I am also now confused on why are we both confused hahahaha
    Imagination is key to the logic of thought, a greatest eternal truth.

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  5. #4  
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    Put you fingers close together in a circle touching a table. Now expand your fingers, what have you got but a big empty center.

    Sorry, but to expand requires a center and everything must go outwards or there collide together.

    How can it expand without the objects getting larger. Everything will collide.

    I firmly believe, the universe can't expand. But it can explode.

    Can anyone show me an animation?
    In 3d and not the surface of a baloon.

    Don't think a baloon is a good example.

    Think about a block of holey cheese, in any shape you like. I know the structure is the wrong way around but anyway.
    Expand the cheese without the holes(galaxys) getting larger.
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  6. #5  
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    Have worked out this though, it can expand if the galaxy's are pushing away from each other, like the oposite of gravity.

    Could be like magnets and there poles pushing away.

    This I can understand.

    Could be the stars formed and the magnetic fields of the stars pushed each other away.
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  7. #6  
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    Quote Originally Posted by griffithsuk
    Put you fingers close together in a circle touching a table. Now expand your fingers, what have you got but a big empty center.

    Sorry, but to expand requires a center and everything must go outwards or there collide together.

    How can it expand without the objects getting larger. Everything will collide.

    I firmly believe, the universe can't expand. But it can explode.

    Can anyone show me an animation?
    In 3d and not the surface of a baloon.

    Don't think a baloon is a good example.

    Think about a block of holey cheese, in any shape you like. I know the structure is the wrong way around but anyway.
    Expand the cheese without the holes(galaxys) getting larger.
    wrong

    The galaxies don't expand because local gravity prevents it.

    Analogies are ANALOGIES. If you want real science, read a real science book, say Weinberg's Gravitation and cosmology : principles and applications of the general theory of relativity
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  8. #7  
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    Quote Originally Posted by griffithsuk
    Have worked out this though, it can expand if the galaxy's are pushing away from each other, like the oposite of gravity.

    Could be like magnets and there poles pushing away.

    This I can understand.

    Could be the magnetic fields of the stars pushed each other away.
    Completely wrong. Ever hear of gravity ?
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  9. #8  
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    im not talking galaxys themself expanding, it's the space between them.
    Im now thinking stars don't like each other and they push each other apart, there was no explosion, the universe formed and something like the magnatism caused the stars to push each other apart, but local gravity pulled together at the same time to form galaxys.
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  10. #9  
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    Quote Originally Posted by griffithsuk
    im not talking galaxys themself expanding, it's the space between them.
    Im thinking galaxys don't like each other and they push each other apart, there was no explosion, the universe formed and something like the oposite of gravity caused the galaxys to push each other apart.
    But that has NOTHING to do with any repulsive force acting among galaxies.

    Your concept is completely wrong. It is not just wrong, it is contradicted by all known physics.

    Try reading a book. For "dark energy" and inflation also look at Weinberg's more recent book Cosmology.
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  11. #10  
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    corrected myself:

    im not talking galaxys themself expanding, it's the space between them.
    Im now thinking stars push each other apart, there was no explosion, the universe formed and something like the magnatism caused the stars to push each other apart, but local gravity pulled together at the same time to form galaxys.

    I will look in to your books.
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  12. #11  
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    Quote Originally Posted by griffithsuk
    corrected myself:

    im not talking galaxys themself expanding, it's the space between them.
    Im now thinking stars don't like each other and they push each other apart, there was no explosion, the universe formed and something like the magnatism caused the stars to push each other apart, but local gravity pulled together at the same time to form galaxys.

    I will look in to your books.
    Wrong. One more time -- gravity is attractive.
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    Yes and magnatism could be the oposite.

    If the universe is expanding then once it was small. Stars repelled and gravity attracked. Forming galaxys!

    Magnatism could have everything to do with it, just like gravity.
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  14. #13  
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    Quote Originally Posted by griffithsuk
    Yes and magnatism could be the oposite.

    If the universe is expanding then once it was small. Stars repelled and gravity attracked. Forming galaxys!

    Magnatism could have everything to do with it, just like gravity.
    No, it could not.

    Do you just make up crap ?

    Go read a physics book. This is ludicrous.
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  15. #14  
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrRocket
    Quote Originally Posted by griffithsuk
    Yes and magnatism could be the oposite.

    If the universe is expanding then once it was small. Stars repelled and gravity attracked. Forming galaxys!

    Magnatism could have everything to do with it, just like gravity.
    No, it could not.

    Do you just make up crap ?

    Go read a physics book. This is ludicrous.
    I will. I quite like my own imagination though. Magnatism could explain why its expanding. may not...
    Guess it is lucky im not being paid for this... may be im just closer to nowhere?

    I am thinking that the big bang was a force, but the galaxys are not going with the force but being pushed apart by it.
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    Im having trouble seeing how galaxys can be "Moving", they would move apart but into each other and not just apart.

    If it was a released energy then the direction of travel would still exist today.
    But if the energy still exists then I would call it a force, it's being constantly produced, the direction is not consistant, it's expanding.
    I believe the big bang is a force that still exists today and not an energy.

    Is the big bang an energy or a force? I don't know what "They" know...

    2 ways of looking at it.

    If there using "Super-colliders" to recreate the bigbang then im guessing they believe its's an energy.
    Im going with a force, why not?

    Or could be there using energy to produce force.
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  17. #16  
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    I posted an explanation in another thread recently, that may be of use here.

    http://www.thescienceforum.com/viewt...hlight=#287039
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  18. #17  
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpeedFreek
    I posted an explanation in another thread recently, that may be of use here.

    http://www.thescienceforum.com/viewt...hlight=#287039
    Thanks for the link. Your explanation is very different to what I have made up today. I came up months ago with "Space surrounds solid" and "space does not have sides as space does not exist", irrelevant I know, but I have to go along with the question of how can space itself expand if it does not exist?

    For space to expand between the galaxys im thinking the galaxys would have to be in a certain uniformly spread out pattern which is not so else there be a lot of warping effects going on.

    Something is fueling the expansion of the universe, it could be magnatism, light(they now say light pushes, who knows?) or something else, but Im guessing for now it comes from the stars.

    There seems to be 3 different ways of the big bang.
    1. Space expansion of the Big Bang.
    2. Energy of the Big Bang.
    3. Force of the Big Bang.

    Any others?
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  19. #18  
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    Quote Originally Posted by griffithsuk
    For space to expand between the galaxys im thinking the galaxys would have to be in a certain uniformly spread out pattern which is not so else there be a lot of warping effects going on.
    These effects are what caused galaxies to cluster together and sometimes merge, whilst the space in between those clusters increases. The warping is due to gravity.

    Quote Originally Posted by griffithsuk
    Something is fueling the expansion of the universe, it could be magnatism, light(they now say light pushes, who knows?) or something else, but Im guessing for now it comes from the stars.
    It couldn't really be any of the above, according to what we know already.

    Quote Originally Posted by griffithsuk
    There seems to be 3 different ways of the big bang.
    1. Space expansion of the Big Bang.
    2. Energy of the Big Bang.
    3. Force of the Big Bang.

    Any others?
    Force isn't a good way to describe it.
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  20. #19  
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    Really im just having a laugth. What do I know?

    There is the question though, what is the push of light doing to the universe?
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  21. #20  
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    The bit that always digs at me is that metric expansion of space is assumed to stop at the human scale. (Have I got this right?)
    I always tend to think this is against the spirit of the cosmological principal.
    I believe in nothing, but trust gravity to hold me down and the electromagnetic force to stop me falling through
    Physics is the search for the best model not the truth, as only mythical beings know that.
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  22. #21  
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    Quote Originally Posted by PetTastic
    The bit that always digs at me is that metric expansion of space is assumed to stop at the human scale. (Have I got this right?)
    I always tend to think this is against the spirit of the cosmological principal.
    No.

    The expansion creates a tension that is counteracted by the variousr forces -- gravity, electromagntixm, strong, weak. These forces overwhelm the expansion so it goes unnoticed exceept in deep space.

    The cosmological principle is really just an assumption, and it applies only on the very largest scale.
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  23. #22  
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrRocket

    No.

    The expansion creates a tension that is counteracted by the variousr forces -- gravity, electromagntixm, strong, weak. These forces overwhelm the expansion so it goes unnoticed exceept in deep space.

    The cosmological principle is really just an assumption, and it applies only on the very largest scale.
    I can see the argument for electromagnetism strong weak stopping planets expanding, but i not so sure about gravity. Is it just we don't have good enough observations to detect metric expansion effecting the orbits of the planets, or are there signs of it?
    I was under the impression that space probe trajectories errored in the other direction if any.
    I believe in nothing, but trust gravity to hold me down and the electromagnetic force to stop me falling through
    Physics is the search for the best model not the truth, as only mythical beings know that.
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  24. #23  
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    Im digging this "Exponentially expanding space"

    Im thinking how can this be fueled?

    How a about a force that gets stronger the further the force flies goes out? could explain it.
    It's weak at the beggining so little expansion, then further along it's a little stronger, so a little more expansion and so on...

    Is it constantly being produced? does not have to? could be an energy and not a force, a single event that is still happening today.

    Is the universe still expanding "Everywhere" or not, just at the edges now?

    The energy from the force could be exponentially moving and exponentially getting stronger as it moves, eeeek!

    The thing is though, it's expanding between the galaxys and not "Outwards", so there could be something from the galaxys?

    It is hard with loads of imagination and no telescope...

    Is there an animation on how it's expanding, in 3d?
    Was space expanding before there were galaxys?
    Is there a center of this expansion and if so what do they believe is there?

    You know, on the outside i don't believe anyone has a clue... lol
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  25. #24  
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    Quote Originally Posted by MeteorWayne
    Quote Originally Posted by griffithsuk

    I will. I quite like my own imagination though...
    ...Please make an effort to understand physics before you start making up your own
    I'm alway amazed at the number of people who think that doing it the other way around will lead to groundbreaking science that all of the "unimaginative" scientists just haven't thought of yet.

    On the other side, though, the fact that griffithsuk seems to indicate in his last post that going insane is a necessary part of his learning technique explains a lot - especially his final "...I'm just having a laugh with this one..." comment.

    Maybe "Astronomy and Cosmology" isn't quite right for him - at least until he grows up or seeks serious and prolonged counseling.

    Chris
    It is difficult to say what is impossible, for the dream of yesterday is the hope of today and the reality of tomorrow.
    Robert H. Goddard - 1904
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  26. #25  
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    Quote Originally Posted by griffithsuk
    ...I'm just having a laugh with this one..." comment.

    Im just having a laugth..
    You cant ask a mentally ill person to try it because there not of fit mind to say "Yes"

    Sorry but people with a mental ilness sometimes have a luagth with there own condition............. HOHOHO it's all we got mate!

    Chris, your rude, you should talk to me not about me. have a think.... who are you talking too? Everyone else? Don't peoplee with an illness matter?

    Guess im now so depressed, ill just go jump.............................................. ................................... and land safely. Dum d dum
    You're quite right. I should have addressed you directly. Your commentary so far in this "Astronomy and Cosmology" section has been unscientific and inappropriate.

    If you're a young person "just having fun", these science sections are not the proper place for you. Most of us in these sections are sincere in our desire to have legitimate questions answered and to discuss different views and interpretations of scientific theory and observations.

    Posting nonsense for fun needlessly wastes the time of our experienced members who are trying to provide sound scientific information to novices like myself.

    If you are, indeed, suffering mental issues then there is a "General Discussion" section in this forum where your posts will be better received and there is also a "Links" section that might direct you to a thread or another forum that is better suited to discuss your concerns and flights of fancy.

    I'm sure we all agree that if you have serious scientific questions you're welcome to post those questions in these science forums. If you're just "playing with us" or are unable to confine yourself to coherent, rational thoughts then we would rather that you use one of the non-science sections.

    Chris
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  27. #26  
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    Sorry if I went amateurish, ill behave in a more appropriate manner in the future.
    Sorry for wasting others time including this time.
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  28. #27  
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    I have removed a few posts that were off topic. Please read the guide lines and rules before posting!

    http://www.thescienceforum.com/The-S...lines-820t.php

    Everyone who comes up with revolutionary and rogue ideas should take the criticism of scientifically educated persons that participate in this forum seriously. Their knowledge reflects the wisdom of many scientists that have done a lot of thinking and experimenting for centuries. I am not saying that new breakthroughs are impossible, but at least a good understanding of already established science should be demonstrated before coming up with something new.

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  29. #28  
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    If you take an arbitrary point in the universe as reference point and then put a large box around it to enclose several galaxies, and then put a much larger box around that.

    The outer box includes galaxies moving faster away from the reference point.
    So do you get the same average energy density in both boxes?
    I believe in nothing, but trust gravity to hold me down and the electromagnetic force to stop me falling through
    Physics is the search for the best model not the truth, as only mythical beings know that.
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  30. #29  
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    Quote Originally Posted by PetTastic
    If you take an arbitrary point in the universe as reference point and then put a large box around it to enclose several galaxies, and then put a much larger box around that.

    The outer box includes galaxies moving faster away from the reference point.
    So do you get the same average energy density in both boxes?
    Yes, because the galaxies farther out are moving faster.
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  31. #30  
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhysBang
    Quote Originally Posted by PetTastic
    If you take an arbitrary point in the universe as reference point and then put a large box around it to enclose several galaxies, and then put a much larger box around that.

    The outer box includes galaxies moving faster away from the reference point.
    So do you get the same average energy density in both boxes?
    Yes, because the galaxies farther out are moving faster.
    Is it valid to view the universe that way, am I effectively making observations beyond the speed of light or something?
    Otherwise if I keep using bigger boxes, I keep measuring a higher density (energy = matter)
    As the universe is infinite ...
    I believe in nothing, but trust gravity to hold me down and the electromagnetic force to stop me falling through
    Physics is the search for the best model not the truth, as only mythical beings know that.
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  32. #31 The Expanding Universe 
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  33. #32 Re: The Expanding Universe 
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    I am afraid you have rather a lot of aether related misconceptions there, Mbush54.
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  34. #33 Re: The Expanding Universe 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mbush54
    it is theorized that space is actualy not the lack of substance, but instead is full of a substance called "Aether" this is the reason that Einstein's Theory of Relitivity does not govern the speed of light. because the "Aether" is not at a constant density, and therefore slows the speed of light as per the observers possition in a Actual Fixed Spacial Location. as the source of light must still uniform to "line of sight" and therefore to get an actual messurment of the speed of light, one must not be on a planetary body (because a planetary body is always in motion), and not have anything, "Aether" included, in between the observer and the source of light. therefore every messurment of the speed of light, theoreticly, cannot be correct. keep in mind that all spacial possitions on a planetary body is never fixed. if one was to cup there hand, and call the center of the void, possition X, then 1 second passes, that means that possition X is actualy about 12 miles away from your hand, from the rotational concept of our planetary body. this is the basis that there is no concept of "Absolute Space". also bear inmind that it is proven that the known universe is expanding at a finite speed and new space, or "Aether" is constantly generated. the cause for this is currently unknown. it is also theorized that the known galaxys are also on a rotational path around something that is currently unknown, though it is speculated to be a giant singularity, possibly the reminents of the "Big Bang". ofcourse this theory cannot be proven, like most.
    bullshit
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  35. #34  
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    Heh, it's like good cop, bad cop!
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