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Thread: astrology

  1. #1 astrology 
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    every now and then i see another reason why astrology is not real. but I've never seen all reasons in one place, and because of that i sometimes forget all the arguments of why it is not real when i need them. like when I'm debating someone.

    i would appreciate it if anyone who views this thread at least post one response to contribute to the list of falsehoods.
    thx


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  3. #2  
    Moderator Moderator Dishmaster's Avatar
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    1. The precession of the earth axis shifts the equinoxes. The vernal equinox was in the constellation of Aries 3000 years ago, but is now already leaving Pisces and moving towards Aquarius (cf. Age of Aquarius). Western astrology still assumes that it is in Aries, as it was 3000 years ago.

    2. For the same reason, the zodiac shifts as well. People who are born under sign of Aries (in the astrological sense) are in fact born, when sun is inside the constellation of Pisces. Therefore, the characterisations that are tied to the signs do not match any longer.

    3. The bodies that are included to create horoscopes are arbitrarily chosen. In astrology, the sun and the moon are counted as planets. Uranus is only known since the 18th century, and is now included in the calculations. Pluto is even worse. It was only dicovered in the 20th century, but is now downgraded and not a planet any more. Asteroids, comets and TNOs (KBOs) are neglected, although some are even bigger than Pluto. What about all the exoplanets? What about the moons of other planets?

    3. The assignment of characters to individual planets (venus = female, mars = male, moon = love, etc.) is arbitrary and does not reflect the true environmental facts of these planets.

    4. A working mechanism, how celestial bodies can influence the character of a person is not clear. Seasonal changes cannot be the cause, because the seasons are different between the northern and the southern hemisphere. We are also mostly detached from seasonal changes nowadays.

    6. Not proven statistically.

    7. Why should the moment of birth count? Why not the moment of conception?

    8. Local influences (social, environmental, etc.) are neglected.


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  4. #3  
    Forum Senior questor's Avatar
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    PROGRESS

    Astrology gave way to astronomy,
    Alchemy to chemistry,
    And religion to philosophy and science.

    Discovering truth provides freedom
    From the shackles of myth;
    It is not doom,
    As the notion of Pandora’s box
    Deceptively paints it.

    The box of truth opens by itself,
    No matter how much
    One might try to put a lid on it.
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  5. #4  
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    Quote Originally Posted by questor
    The box of truth opens by itself,
    No matter how much
    One might try to put a lid on it.
    I think it's much more fragile. Several times before knowledge has become restricted, hidden and destroyed. The anti-intellectual movement in the US is most concerning.
    Meteorologist/Naturalist & Retired Soldier
    “The Holy Land is everywhere” Black Elk
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  6. #5  
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    That's true, but information will still come out eventually, or sooner via other avenues. Luckily, I worked in the DIA.
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  7. #6  
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    N o t P r o g r e s s

    It seems that some may have
    Such a wide open mind
    That emotions such as hope and despair
    Can trump the evidence of the senses,
    Especially in times like these,
    When the world seems to
    Be spinning out of control,
    When there is a surge of belief in astrology,
    ESP, and other paranormal phenomena,
    Spurred in part by a yearning
    To feel a sense of control.

    The mind looks a bit too hard for explanations,
    Especially for those that let one be connected
    To a larger reality, a comfort bolstered
    By the thought of angels who are watching over one.

    Yet none of this is ever so clear cut
    That one can ever see it straight out.
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  8. #7  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope skeptic's Avatar
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    If astrologers try to make specific predictions, their work becomes scientifically testable. If they try to keep their predictions too general to be testable, they remain useless.

    Proper scientific testing has been done multiple times. One article I read some time ago mentioned a total of more than 22,000 rigorous scientific tests, with an overall result showing very clearly that it is all nonsense.

    Here are some further references.

    Culver, Roger & Ianna, Philip Astrology: True or False. 1988, Prometheus Books. The best skeptical book about astrology, full of useful information.

    Fraknoi, A. "Your Astrology Defense Kit" in Sky & Telescope, Aug. 1989, p. 146. An introductory article with some basic skeptical questions about astrology. (Available on the web at:
    http://www.astrosociety.org/education/astro/act3/
    astrology3.html#defense)

    Astrology and Science Web Site: Ivan Kelly and others keep some of the best articles and research studies on this crowded site.
    http://www.rudolfhsmit.nl/hpage.htm

    The Astrotest: Dutch skeptic Rob Nanninga describes an experimental test of astrology done with the help of astrologers.
    http://www.skepsis.nl/astrot.html

    The Real Romance in the Stars: Biologist Richard Dawkins wrote an angry column to a British newspaper flirting with astrology and you can see it here with a few later notes.
    http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion...s-1527970.html

    Carlson, S. "Astrology" in Experientia, vol. 44, p. 290 (1988). A clear review.

    Carlson, S. "A Double Blind Test of Astrology" in Nature, vol. 318, p. 419 (5 Dec. 1985). A technical paper describing a good experiment examining whether astrology works.

    Dean, G. "Does Astrology Need to be True?" in Skeptical Inquirer, Winter 86-87, p. 116; Spring 1987, p. 257. An important examination of tests about astrology.

    Dean, G. & Kelly, I. "Does Astrology Work: Astrology and Skepticism 1975-2000" in Kurtz, Paul, ed. Skeptical Odysseys. 2001, Prometheus Books.

    Kelly, I. "Modern Astrology: A Critique" in Psychological Reports, vol. 81, p. 1035 (1997). An excellent review. (An expanded version can be found on the first web site recommended below.)

    Kelly, I." Why Astrology Doesn't Work" in Psychological Reports, vol. 82, p. 527 (1998).

    Kurtz, P. & Fraknoi, A. "Scientific Tests of Astrology Do Not Support Its Claims" in Skeptical Inquirer, Spring 1985, p. 210.

    Kurtz, P., et al. "Astrology and the Presidency" in Skeptical Inquirer, Fall 1988, p. 3. A good summary of the controversy concerning astrology in the Reagan White House.

    Lovi, G. "Zodiacal Signs Versus Constellations" in Sky & Telescope, Nov. 1987, p.507.
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  9. #8  
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    The doctor and nurses in the delivery room would have more influence than the signs of the zodiac, which are merely connect-the-dots of stars at widely different distances.

    The astrological world is now in an uproar since the original Babylonian zodiac has just been restored.


    D e a d I d e a s

    Strewn about the great panoramic realm
    Of the ONE possibly conceivable at the helm
    Are all of the unknowable fabrications
    Often dreamt up via exaggerations
    By the human race of mammal sapiens.

    The realm of such pronouncements has come to be
    Superposed at the furthest edge of reality,
    Poised by the scope of some wishful thinking,
    By all those dreaming and wild supposing,
    Who wish for such legends to be ever
    Actualized and realized; however,
    These ideas have never ever made it
    Into our observable realistic habitat in any way,
    They but remaining in the minds, joint,
    Of the idea-beholders—
    Even as widely varying viewpoints.

    Without so much much as a word to say,
    I passed those to whom most no longer pray,
    Nor believe in, but once did, namely,
    Those of the graveyard tombstones now so unholy:

    Astrology—the God of the Stars that plod,
    Eternally blazed and marbled in the sod,
    The monuments of Diana the Moon God,
    Apollo the Sun God , Baal, Zeus, Wotan,
    Aphrodite, Thor, Mithras, Isis, Amon,
    Poseidon, the Druid Gods, and on and on, anon.

    I ever hurried past the ledgering
    Of those older mythologies preceding
    The formation of the Old Testament story—
    Those ancient superstitions whose very
    And various olden amalgamations
    Came forth to form it whole for our salvation.

    I paused at that Old Testament maligned,
    To mark the old but lingering lines
    Of the ‘knowing’ of more invisibles,
    The beliefs in imagined angelic creatures…

    There were Angels standing, frozen in stone,
    Over the timeworn memorials’ poems,
    And atop the crumbling gateposts,
    They being the livelier and near-living ghosts
    Of the representations of the three spheres
    Of the heavenly host: the demigod-near
    Seraphims, Cherubims, Ophanims,
    Thrones, Principalities, Dominions,
    Powers, Archangels, Angels, and, those final,
    And perhaps the most useful—the Guardian Angels
    That are said to protect children from falls.

    There, Amaranth, its dead red leaves never
    Ever fading on this Earth unto forever,
    Gave some color around the graveyard pallor
    And to the dateless headstones’ squalor.

    There’s a garish purplish maroon view, on high,
    Of streaking lights of an electromagnetic sky,
    Heretofore never sighted by my self;
    I strolled on and into the vale itself.
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  10. #9  
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    (I'm all upset because they changed my sign from No Trespassing to Keep Off the Grass!)
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  11. #10  
    Moderator Moderator Dishmaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by questor
    (I'm all upset because they changed my sign from No Trespassing to Keep Off the Grass!)
    Quote Originally Posted by George Smoot
    Are you on crack? (The Big Bang Theory, Season 2, Episode 17)
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