Notices
Results 1 to 29 of 29

Thread: 2012?

  1. #1 2012? 
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    11
    Can someone help me understand how visible the planets will be upon the climax; when the planets aline?


    Reply With Quote  
     

  2.  
     

  3. #2  
    Moderator Moderator Janus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    2,069
    That's a little hard to do, because there will be no planetary alignment in 2012.


    "Men are apt to mistake the strength of their feelings for the strength of their argument.
    The heated mind resents the chill touch & relentless scrutiny of logic"-W.E. Gladstone


    Edit/Delete Message
    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #3
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    11
    It was on the history channel ?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #4 Re: ? 
    Moderator Moderator Janus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    2,069
    Quote Originally Posted by Kilomanjaro
    It was on the history channel ?
    The history channel may have stated that some people were claiming that there will be an alignment in 2012, but unless they were really lax in their research, I doubt that they said that it would actually happen.

    You can go to this site:

    http://www.fourmilab.ch/cgi-bin/Solar

    Type in any date you want, and it will show you the arrangement of the planets fro that date. Note that the planets do not line up at any time during that year.
    "Men are apt to mistake the strength of their feelings for the strength of their argument.
    The heated mind resents the chill touch & relentless scrutiny of logic"-W.E. Gladstone


    Edit/Delete Message
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #5  
    Forum Freshman Spaceman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    67
    Information about the 2012 doomsday often have no scientific evidence to prove that it really will happen ,
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #6  
    Forum Professor jrmonroe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    1,444
    The only planetary “alignment” that I know of on 21 Dec 2012 is that, as viewed from Earth, all the solar system bodies except Jupiter will form a somewhat crooked line across the sky (approximately L to R): Moon, Uranus, Neptune, Mars, Pluto, Sun, Mercury, Venus, and Saturn. The thing is — they’re “out” during the day, so we won’t see them except for the Moon and Sun.

    Q: What does it mean?
    A: It means that the planets will appear to form a somewhat crooked line across the sky as viewed from Earth.

    Q: What will happen?
    A: Nothing. These bodies have done this countless times before and they will do so again. The solar system is extraordinarily stable.

    Oh … yes, this "alignment" will cause something to happen. It’ll cause some people to waste their time and money reading 2012 disaster books. And it’s profitable for Hollywood too.

    Bodies to the left of the Sun on 21 Dec 2012

    Bodies to the right of the Sun on 21 Dec 2012
    Grief is the price we pay for love. (CM Parkes) Our postillion has been struck by lightning. (Unknown) War is always the choice of the chosen who will not have to fight. (Bono) The years tell much what the days never knew. (RW Emerson) Reality is not always probable, or likely. (JL Borges)
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #7  
    Forum Sophomore
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    160
    If anything happens during 2012 it will because people make it happen to fulfill the "prophecy." By which I mean, if nothing was ever said about 2012 being the end of the world, the year would pass by just like any other year. However because people believe the world is going to end, they might very well lose their minds and cause something to happen, thus the "prophecy" is fulfilled.

    In summary, if something happens, it will be because of peoples stupidity, not because it was going to happen anyway.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you" - Friedrich Nietzsche

    Semper Paratus
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #8  
    Forum Bachelors Degree x(x-y)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    462
    Quote Originally Posted by Janus
    That's a little hard to do, because there will be no planetary alignment in 2012.
    That's incorrect. The Earth, the Sun, other planets in our solar system (and most certainly in others) will align with the galactic centre in 2012- 21 Decemeber.

    However, what these doomsday theorists don't say is that this occurs 21 December every year...
    "Nature doesn't care what we call it, she just does it anyway" - R. Feynman
    Reply With Quote  
     

  10. #9  
    Moderator Moderator Dishmaster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Heidelberg, Germany
    Posts
    1,624
    Quote Originally Posted by x(x-y)
    Quote Originally Posted by Janus
    That's a little hard to do, because there will be no planetary alignment in 2012.
    That's incorrect. The Earth, the Sun, other planets in our solar system (and most certainly in others) will align with the galactic centre in 2012- 21 Decemeber.
    No, this is nonsense! There is no alignment. Please look at the images produced with a planetarium software (XEphem). Neither is the sun near the galactic centre (GC) nor are there any planets in alignment with the sun or the GC. Also not in the opposite (antisolar) direction. The ecliptic does not even cross the GC, so there will be no such alignment at least for the next millennia.





    And don't say, it is close enough. No, it is not. The sun and the GC are more than 5 degrees away. This is 10 times the apparent diameter of the sun.

    Neither can any such alignment be assigned to a single day. The movement through the galaxy is much too slow for such an accurate definition.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  11. #10  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard SkinWalker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Grand Prairie, TX
    Posts
    2,377
    An actual "alignment" of the planets, where an imaginary straight line can be drawn in space that connects each will probably never happen because of the slight variances in each planet's orbital plane.

    Loose groupings of planets, such that if you were to view the Solar System from above, and on a two-dimensional plane, they would appear to align, occurs about once every 200 years or so (they actually come within 90 degrees of each other).

    The probability that all the planets (excluding the Moon) will line up -that is all the superior planets (Mars - Pluto) are within one minute of each other in right ascension while all the inferior planets (Venus and Mercury) are likewise 12 hours to the other side of Earth, is something like once in 180 trillion years. The calculation I referenced was made before Pluto was demoted, but you get the idea.

    Planets also don't seem to align every December 21. This is just the day when the Earth's axial tilt is often the furthest away from the Sun (winter solstice). And even that doesn't always happen on the 21st. Some years is on the 22nd.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  12. #11  
    Forum Bachelors Degree x(x-y)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    462
    Sorry, seems I am mistaken. I just heard that from a Dr.Neil Degrasse Tyson, he stated that this happens 21 December every year...

    Anyway, technically the Earth is always aligned with the galactic centre- as long as you can draw a straight line to Earth from the centre, it is technically aligned!
    "Nature doesn't care what we call it, she just does it anyway" - R. Feynman
    Reply With Quote  
     

  13. #12  
    Moderator Moderator Dishmaster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Heidelberg, Germany
    Posts
    1,624
    Quote Originally Posted by x(x-y)
    Sorry, seems I am mistaken. I just heard that from a Dr.Neil Degrasse Tyson, he stated that this happens 21 December every year...

    Anyway, technically the Earth is always aligned with the galactic centre- as long as you can draw a straight line to Earth from the centre, it is technically aligned!
    ... as much as any other arbitrary point of the universe.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  14. #13  
    Forum Bachelors Degree x(x-y)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    462
    Quote Originally Posted by Dishmaster
    Quote Originally Posted by x(x-y)
    Sorry, seems I am mistaken. I just heard that from a Dr.Neil Degrasse Tyson, he stated that this happens 21 December every year...

    Anyway, technically the Earth is always aligned with the galactic centre- as long as you can draw a straight line to Earth from the centre, it is technically aligned!
    ... as much as any other arbitrary point of the universe.
    Indeed...
    "Nature doesn't care what we call it, she just does it anyway" - R. Feynman
    Reply With Quote  
     

  15. #14 2012 Alignment 
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    USA - unfortunately
    Posts
    7
    The alignment that will occur on 12/21/12 is not a planetary alignment. What will occur is that our planet will be in alignment with the "galactic equator" Our solar system orbits around the center of the galaxy at an angle, traveling through the "northern" and "southern" hemispheres of the Milky Way. The phenomenon that occurs in 2012 is that we are passing from the "southern" to the "northern". The problem is that the last time we passed through the "equator" was before recorded history. The only way to know what happened last time is to study the geological records from that time period. One thing that is known is that we are passing from a negative polarity to a positive polarity in the galactic magnetic field. There is a 33 year period (16 1/2 years either side of 12/21/12) where the magnetic field wanes then waxes, placing us in a neutral zone as we pass through the "equator". The effects of this are unknown, but we would be foolish to think that this won't have any effect on our own planetary magnetosphere. Just look at the weather patterns and geological events that have happened since the summer of 1996. I believe that the earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanoes, hurricanes, freakish storms, solar flares, and disrupted seasonal changes that have been part of our lives during the past 14 years are directly related to the upcoming phenomenon. As for whether it's gonna be "the end of the world" or not, I personally am excited to see what happens.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  16. #15 Re: 2012 Alignment 
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    8,822
    Quote Originally Posted by KilkennyJake
    The alignment that will occur on 12/21/12 is not a planetary alignment. What will occur is that our planet will be in alignment with the "galactic equator"
    No. That is incorrect. No such thing will occur.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  17. #16 Re: 2012 Alignment 
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    14,169
    Quote Originally Posted by KilkennyJake
    The alignment that will occur on 12/21/12 is not a planetary alignment. What will occur is that our planet will be in alignment with the "galactic equator"
    Spouting nonsense with great confidence does not stop it being nonsense.
    Quote Originally Posted by KilkennyJake
    Our solar system orbits around the center of the galaxy at an angle, traveling through the "northern" and "southern" hemispheres of the Milky Way.
    However, the plane of the Milky Way, an artificial construct, is not defined with any great precision. That, coupled with our comparatively leisurely progress around the galaxy and across the plane, means that the timing of our crossing can not be established to anything closer than a thousand years and more likely even more. Therefore, to suggest this crossing is imminent is pure fantasy.
    Quote Originally Posted by KilkennyJake
    . One thing that is known is that we are passing from a negative polarity to a positive polarity in the galactic magnetic field. There is a 33 year period (16 1/2 years either side of 12/21/12) where the magnetic field wanes then waxes, placing us in a neutral zone as we pass through the "equator". .
    Yeah! Right! nd you know this how exactly? Go on - amze me. Provide a bona fide research article that confirms this self indulgent stupidity.
    Quote Originally Posted by KilkennyJake
    Just look at the weather patterns and geological events that have happened since the summer of 1996. I believe that the earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanoes, hurricanes, freakish storms, solar flares, and disrupted seasonal changes that have been part of our lives during the past 14 years are directly related to the upcoming phenomenon.
    Please demonstrate that there has been a statistically significant increase in earthquakes over the past fourteen years that is beyond what we might expect in any randomly selected fourteen year period.

    Please demonstrate - you know you can't - that there has been a significant increase in solar flares in the last fourteen years.

    Please tell me what freakish storms you are referring to and demonstrate with clarity that these are truly freakish.

    Quote Originally Posted by KilkennyJake
    As for whether it's gonna be "the end of the world" or not, I personally am excited to see what happens.
    Keep an eye on that bloodpressure. We wouldn't want to see a stroke robbing us of such an incisive brain.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  18. #17 Re: 2012 Alignment 
    Moderator Moderator Dishmaster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Heidelberg, Germany
    Posts
    1,624
    Quote Originally Posted by KilkennyJake
    The alignment that will occur on 12/21/12 is not a planetary alignment. What will occur is that our planet will be in alignment with the "galactic equator" Our solar system orbits around the center of the galaxy at an angle, traveling through the "northern" and "southern" hemispheres of the Milky Way. The phenomenon that occurs in 2012 is that we are passing from the "southern" to the "northern".
    Bogus!

    Here are 3 recent scientific determinations of the position of the sun above the Galactic plane. Note how the values do not change very much during a decade. In summary, we have been above the Galactic plane a while. The typical number is anything between about 10 and 30 pc. The development of these numbers does not indicate any rapid change that would justifiy focussing on one single day.

    http://www.springerlink.com/content/rg545302618n0673/
    http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/bi...J....110.2183H
    http://arxiv.org/abs/0704.0950

    The fact that the measurement of the height of the sun above the Galactic plane is not trivial and leads to quite a large scatter makes any firm prediction of the crossing date ridiculous.

    Quote Originally Posted by KilkennyJake
    I believe that the earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanoes, hurricanes, freakish storms, solar flares, and disrupted seasonal changes that have been part of our lives during the past 14 years are directly related to the upcoming phenomenon.
    The sun was very calm during the recent years. The activity measured by the number of sunspots was exceptionally low. It is just starting to increase slightly according to the averaged 11 year cycle.

    And for another reality check of your claims, I refer to the official earthquake statistics that date back 30 years:
    http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquak...ear/graphs.php
    Reply With Quote  
     

  19. #18  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    179
    The only alignment in 2012 will be between the earth, the sun and the centre of the galaxy. BUT THAT HAPPENS EVERY YEAR!!
    Reply With Quote  
     

  20. #19  
    Moderator Moderator Dishmaster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Heidelberg, Germany
    Posts
    1,624
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael_Roberts
    The only alignment in 2012 will be between the earth, the sun and the centre of the galaxy. BUT THAT HAPPENS EVERY YEAR!!
    Ahem, would you care to read the previous posts in this thread? This is wrong. The ecliptic misses the GC by several degrees.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  21. #20  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    179
    It happens every year! 21st of December every year! 2012 is no exception. Meaning its not that big of a deal.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJjQMwEjC1I

    I think the moderator needs to understand his science.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  22. #21  
    Moderator Moderator Dishmaster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Heidelberg, Germany
    Posts
    1,624
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael_Roberts
    It happens every year! 21st of December every year! 2012 is no exception. Meaning its not that big of a deal.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJjQMwEjC1I

    I think the moderator needs to understand his science.
    Oh yes, he does. But the graphs show that the "alignment" is not perfect. Yes, it happens every year, but still: the sun misses the GC be several degrees - and it does so every year. You can check with every decent planetarium software. I suggest you take a good look at the graphs I provided before. They show you the situation for exactly that date.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  23. #22  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    179
    Ah ok, so the alignment is slightly out. But I was kind of trying to say that the alignment of 2012 that many people talk about is a common occourance. I'll have a look at the charts!

    Thanks! /Michael
    Reply With Quote  
     

  24. #23  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    14,169
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael_Roberts
    I think the moderator needs to understand his science.
    I think the member needs to understand that the moderator is not only a scientist, but an astronomer.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  25. #24  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    179
    I think that the moderator understood my point eventually that the sun, earth and GC align, but not through the galactic plane. I was merely sticking up for the anti-2012 doomsday scenario! Not to mention Niels deGrasse Tyson is one of the best astronomers in modern day!
    Reply With Quote  
     

  26. #25  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    14,169
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael_Roberts
    I was merely sticking up for the anti-2012 doomsday scenario!
    An admirable intention, but 'sticking up' for ideas in science should involve the use of good science, not vague arm waving.
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael_Roberts
    Not to mention Niels deGrasse Tyson is one of the best astronomers in modern day!
    1. Appeal to authority fallacy.
    2. So, he should know better!
    Reply With Quote  
     

  27. #26  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    179
    Hhaha, so your disputing Niels deGrasse Tyson??

    Who was awarded the NASA Distinguished Public Service Medal, who studied at Harvard College (B.A) the University of Texas (M.A.) the Columbia University (Ph.D.)?? Who works at the Hayden Planetarium??

    In addition to his earned degrees, Tyson is the recipient of honorary doctorates from Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, City University of New York, Howard University, Dominican College, Ramapo College, University of Richmond, Bloomfield College, Northeastern University, Pace University, Williams College, and University of Pennsylvania, as well as a Medal of Excellence from Columbia University!!!

    Not to mention Tyson was voted the Sexiest Astrophysicist Alive by People Magazine in 2000!! :-D

    Come on, pull the other one (as they say!)

    Answer me this: Does the sun, earth and the centre of the galaxy align every 21st of December every year?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  28. #27  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    14,169
    Michael, as I pointed out in my previous post, that is the logical fallacy of appeal to authority. Tyson is known for his popularisation of science.

    His NASA award was primarily for work on committees looking at the future of NASA. His honorary degrees reflect again his work in popularising science.

    Popularising means simplifying, even dumbing down. That's what his approximate references to galactic alignment are.

    You ask me to choose between two options: accept the a second hand report of the words of a science populariser, whose astronomical speciality I can't readily extract from the rash of media hype surrounding him, or accept the clear, direct statement of an individual who has demonstrated his knowledge, objectivity and ethical standards on this board over hundreds of posts and a number of years.

    It isn't even a choice.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  29. #28  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    179
    He simplifies science. Because he knows how and when to simplify it.

    The 2012 irrationalists point to this cosmic alignment as some sort of spiritual guidance or proof of this doomsday 'fallacy'. It may be out by a few degrees, but thats pretty good right, for them I mean. Except when we say it happens every year and their is nothing special about this near alignment.

    Perhaps I shouldn't of been so rash in playing down the moderators ability in science, for I'm sure it out weights mine by a clear mile. But I stick by the fact that this near-alignment is nothing special and Dr. Tyson is well versed in astronomy, and he is well respected around the world.

    You don't get to his position of authority by just simplifying science. I dont think I could even pass the entry exam to get into Harvard!

    :-D
    Reply With Quote  
     

  30. #29  
    Moderator Moderator Dishmaster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Heidelberg, Germany
    Posts
    1,624
    We are not debating whether the 2012 hysteria has any real background or not. I think we all agree that it is utter nonsense. This is also not about who has a higher merit or respect. This does not mean anything in science - at least, it shouldn't. The only thing that matters is the truth. And when this Tyson guy literally says "they align perfectly", this is plain wrong. We are talking about science here, and I think one should be as accurate as possible, especially when it is so easy to demonstrate. "A few degrees off" is not good enough for me. A few degrees off is more than several diameters of the moon. A few degrees off distinguishes between a spectacular beautiful comet sighting and a catastrophic annihilation of the human race. I just do not understand the reason for this oversimplification here. Wouldn't it be even more impressive to falsify the scenario entirely? This is really what I hate about popularisation: Simplifying facts until they are are wrong. What if in this case some crackpot comes back to him and demonstrates publicly that he was wrong? Then he immediately starts to construct a case to discredit his credibility entirely. The normal John Doe, who does not have a firm scientific education, cannot distinguish between an "innocent simplification" and a scientifically wrong statement.
    Reply With Quote  
     

Bookmarks
Bookmarks
Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •