Thread: Really depressing theory, say its impossible so i can sleep.

Ok i got this really depressing idea when imagining why the universe is as it is.

Lets say that the big bang is 100% true and there was an explosion that expanded the universe to what it is today.

Good so far?

A) All matter in the universe gathered at one tiny spot.

B) This spot has a reaction and "explodes" expanding what is the universe now.

Here is where my thinking comes into the picture:

Is it possible the universe can CONTRACT back to point A? Black holes sucking the universe back into one spot again as it once were? Doesent need to be black holes but asking here if anything can make it possible?

if so:

C) The universe contracts back to point A and repeats indefinatly.


This would mean there is a chanse im writing this thread for the 216th thousand time! Even if the universe would be completely different each time, it would still - over an infinite timeline repeat itself.

This would mean we live in complete ignorance in an inescapable prison of a self repeating process.

Please tell me its scientifically impossible so i can sleep at night.

Edit: typos

Originally Posted by Raziell

This would mean there is a chanse im writing this thread for the 216th thousand time! ..........
Please tell me its scientifically impossible so i can sleep at night.

It's worse for me. This is the 216th thousand time I've had to read your question.

What you are outlining is a perfectly accepted cosmological theory - I believe it would be described as an oscillating universe theory which may involve numerous big bangs. I don't know why you're depressed about it though. We will all be long dead and buried before it may occur. I imagine our sun would burn out way in advance.

Originally Posted by bradford28

What you are outlining is a perfectly accepted cosmological theory - I believe it would be described as an oscillating universe theory which may involve numerous big bangs. I don't know why you're depressed about it though. We will all be long dead and buried before it may occur. I imagine our sun would burn out way in advance.

So its not possible to disprove it?

Its not a problem if youre a "What you dont know wont hurt you" person. But the thought that any progress will inevitably collapse and repeat itself is very disturbing.

And yes this would involve a numerous, infact eternal chain of big bangs and collapses.

It also fits the "Energy cannot be destroyed or created, only change form"
Consider the universe has a finite sum of energy. At one spot it will cause the big bang raction expanding and creating life. At a point it will automaticly collapse back on itself creating death. It would be a process of change, which is good - but it would also mean even if you discover all the secrets of the universe and you are able to achieve a utopia of existance, youd be forced to start over.

Originally Posted by Raziell

Its not a problem if youre a "What you dont know wont hurt you" person. But the thought that any progress will inevitably collapse and repeat itself is very disturbing.

And yes this would involve a numerous, infact eternal chain of big bangs and collapses.

...

At a point it will automatically collapse back on itself creating death. It would be a process of change, which is good - but it would also mean even if you discover all the secrets of the universe and you are able to achieve a utopia of existence, you'd be forced to start over.

First, all evidence we have today seems to indicate that this will not happen. Observations demonstrate that the universal matter density is too low to turn the expansion around.

Nevertheless, the universe will die, no matter what path it will take. Even if it does not collapse again, it will reach a point, where all evolution comes to an end. Either, expansion will take over and all matter will disintegrate (Big Rip), or simply all energy transformation processes will stop, because there is no fuel left to drive the fusion process of stars. Therefore, all life and progress will eventually come to an end, regardless of which scenario will become reality.

I get why its depressing as life can seem kinda pointless if its all going to end anyway. It would be nice to know the human race will maintain itself through all of time(new thread idea) but if the universe did repeatedly contract then rebang life would never be the same as a lot of things happen on chance. Different planets mean living things would grow up differently and the apple might have hit the queen of England instead. Mixing chromosomes is also random so the chances of making the same person who would write the same thread at the same time is also low. Its things like this that make people(at least me personally) believe in a heaven. If not then live life to the max for you.

Originally Posted by Dishmaster

Originally Posted by Raziell

Its not a problem if youre a "What you dont know wont hurt you" person. But the thought that any progress will inevitably collapse and repeat itself is very disturbing.

And yes this would involve a numerous, infact eternal chain of big bangs and collapses.

...

At a point it will automatically collapse back on itself creating death. It would be a process of change, which is good - but it would also mean even if you discover all the secrets of the universe and you are able to achieve a utopia of existence, you'd be forced to start over.

First, all evidence we have today seems to indicate that this will not happen. Observations demonstrate that the universal matter density is too low to turn the expansion around.

Nevertheless, the universe will die, no matter what path it will take. Even if it does not collapse again, it will reach a point, where all evolution comes to an end. Either, expansion will take over and all matter will disintegrate (Big Rip), or simply all energy transformation processes will stop, because there is no fuel left to drive the fusion process of stars. Therefore, all life and progress will eventually come to an end, regardless of which scenario will become reality.

As Dishmaster said, all current theories, observations, and mathematics indicates that, with our current knowlege, the universe is expanding and will continue to expand. Whether this will result in the Big Rip, where everything expands until even atoms can no longer hold together and are torn apart, or stars and everything runs out of fuel to generate heat, and the universe freezes, is still debated, as far as I know.

Sure it might be depressing to think about that no matter what we do, we are doomed, but is that any different than living your life? You ARE going to die, it's only a matter of time. How is it any different for the universe? Besides, you'll live say 100 years, the universe, will be likely well over 100 billion years old, before it finally dies, if not trillions of years. 1,000,000,000 times longer than you lived. Assuming the human race lives for that long, I think we would have accomplished enough to be satisfied with how our race evolved, learned, and progressed.

What you were talking about is commonly known as The Big Crunch:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimat...f_the_universe

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

The Big Crunch theory is a symmetric view of the ultimate fate of the universe. Just as the Big Bang started a cosmological expansion, this theory postulates that the average density of the universe is enough to stop its expansion and begin contracting. The end result is unknown; a simple extrapolation would have all the matter and space-time in the universe collapse into a dimensionless singularity, but at these scales unknown quantum effects need to be considered (See Quantum gravity).

This scenario allows the Big Bang to have been immediately preceded by the Big Crunch of a preceding universe. If this occurs repeatedly, we have an oscillatory universe. The universe could then consist of an infinite sequence of finite universes, each finite universe ending with a Big Crunch that is also the Big Bang of the next universe. Theoretically, the oscillating universe could not be reconciled with the second law of thermodynamics: entropy would build up from oscillation to oscillation and cause heat death. Other measurements suggested the universe is not closed. These arguments caused cosmologists to abandon the oscillating universe model. A somewhat similar idea is embraced by the cyclic model, but this idea evades heat death, because of an expansion of the branes that dilutes entropy accumulated in the previous cycle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1_E19_s_and_more

Some interesting numbers to think about if you're even remotely depressed about the finite lifespan of the universe.

Thanks for the reply Haasum. Wasnt aware it was allready thought of. But in these days, what isnt? :wink:

Some things im still wondering about:

The heat death seems unlikely when i think of it. If the universe has a total sum of energy, and energy cannot be created or destroyed - why do scientists believe entrophy will occur? As ive understand entrophy is the loss of/death of energy?

On black holes. Ive understood that they grow aslong as they have matter and energy to "feed" on. Wont this mean that its inevitable that the whole universe will be swallowed into one spot again eventually? Ive read NOTHING can escape a black hole, not even light. So if black holes grow and grow wont they at one point have such a powerfull pulling force it will catch up with the expanding universe?

If all the energy in the universe is needed to be contracted into one spot for the big crunch chain event, wont black holes inevitable perform this task?

Originally Posted by Raziell

The heat death seems unlikely when i think of it. If the universe has a total sum of energy, and energy cannot be created or destroyed - why do scientists believe entrophy will occur? As ive understand entrophy is the loss of/death of energy?

The entropy is a quantity that describes, in how many ways a thermodynamical system can be statistically realised. Energy cannot be lost, just transformed. There are processes, in which such transformations are reversible, while others are not. This means that e.g. once heat is produced, it cannot be reversed any more in nuclear energy for instance to serve as fuel again. So, eventually, all energy will be transformed into a final form. Further processes will then not be possible any more. If you take stars, this means that at some point, all hydrogen will be consumed and its inherent nuclear energy will be transformed into heat. And then, all the lights will slowly die out.

Originally Posted by Raziell

On black holes. Ive understood that they grow aslong as they have matter and energy to "feed" on. Wont this mean that its inevitable that the whole universe will be swallowed into one spot again eventually? Ive read NOTHING can escape a black hole, not even light. So if black holes grow and grow wont they at one point have such a powerfull pulling force it will catch up with the expanding universe.

No. The sum gravitational force will not be increased, because the total mass stays constant. The mass will only be redistributed, and the density will be locally higher. That might have local effects, but on universal scales, there will be no difference.

The entropy is a quantity that describes, in how many ways a thermodynamical system can be statistically realised. Energy cannot be lost, just transformed. There are processes, in which such transformations are reversible, while others are not. This means that e.g. once heat is produced, it cannot be reversed any more in nuclear energy for instance to serve as fuel again. So, eventually, all energy will be transformed into a final form. Further processes will then not be possible any more. If you take stars, this means that at some point, all hydrogen will be consumed and its inherent nuclear energy will be transformed into heat. And then, all the lights will slowly die out.

No. The sum gravitational force will not be increased, because the total mass stays constant. The mass will only be redistributed, and the density will be locally higher. That might have local effects, but on universal scales, there will be no difference.

1) Maybe this is a stupid idea but... Is it possible that those processes that are irreversible are also part of a cycle?

Example:

Form 1 -> form 2 -> form 3 -> form 4 -> form 1.

Meaning form 2 of energy cannot go back to form 1, BUT can in the end go through other forms of energy to be able to transform to form 1 again after a chain of changes?

2) Is this true nomatter what shape the galaxy has, considering the possibility of all theories today?

Originally Posted by Raziell

1) Maybe this is a stupid idea but... Is it possible that those processes that are irreversible are also part of a cycle?

Example:

Form 1 -> form 2 -> form 3 -> form 4 -> form 1.

Meaning form 2 of energy cannot go back to form 1, BUT can in the end go through other forms of energy to be able to transform to form 1 again after a chain of changes?

No, this would be a perpetuum mobile and it violates the laws of thermodynamics.

Originally Posted by Raziell

No. The sum gravitational force will not be increased, because the total mass stays constant. The mass will only be redistributed, and the density will be locally higher. That might have local effects, but on universal scales, there will be no difference.

2) Is this true nomatter what shape the galaxy has, considering the possibility of all theories today?

Let me give you an example: our solar system. The Classical Newtonian Gravitational Theory describes the planetary orbits of the planets around the Sun very well, even if the Sun is regarded point like. So, it does not matter, how much the Sun is compressed. However, the orbit of Mercury, the planet closest to the Sun, has deviations that can only be explained by Einsteins General Relativity, because it also includes the curvature of space (and time). So, the orbit of Mercury is a local phenomenon. If the Sun was compressed more - let's say even to a Black Hole - the local disturbances my also affect orbits of other planets, but the general effect is the same. If you are sufficiently far away from that central mass, it does not matter any more how much it is compressed, and the planetary orbits could very well be described by Newtonian Gravitational Theory.

Originally Posted by Raziell

Ok i got this really depressing idea when imagining why the universe is as it is.

Lets say that the big bang is 100% true and there was an explosion that expanded the universe to what it is today.

Good so far?

A) All matter in the universe gathered at one tiny spot.

B) This spot has a reaction and "explodes" expanding what is the universe now.

Here is where my thinking comes into the picture:

Is it possible the universe can CONTRACT back to point A? Black holes sucking the universe back into one spot again as it once were? Doesent need to be black holes but asking here if anything can make it possible?

if so:

C) The universe contracts back to point A and repeats indefinatly.


This would mean there is a chanse im writing this thread for the 216th thousand time! Even if the universe would be completely different each time, it would still - over an infinite timeline repeat itself.

This would mean we live in complete ignorance in an inescapable prison of a self repeating process.

Please tell me its scientifically impossible so i can sleep at night.

Edit: typos

you find this depressing? man this is the MOST pleasant end to our cosmos possible

the alternative is a slow dwindling death as everything just dies, and atoms break down into nothing

Originally Posted by Booms

you find this depressing? man this is the MOST pleasant end to our cosmos possible

the alternative is a slow dwindling death as everything just dies, and atoms break down into nothing

Giving that some thought you are kinda right... thinking what the alternatives are.

Originally Posted by Dishmaster

Originally Posted by Raziell

Its not a problem if youre a "What you dont know wont hurt you" person. But the thought that any progress will inevitably collapse and repeat itself is very disturbing.

And yes this would involve a numerous, infact eternal chain of big bangs and collapses.

...

At a point it will automatically collapse back on itself creating death. It would be a process of change, which is good - but it would also mean even if you discover all the secrets of the universe and you are able to achieve a utopia of existence, you'd be forced to start over.

First, all evidence we have today seems to indicate that this will not happen. Observations demonstrate that the universal matter density is too low to turn the expansion around.

Except that BBT expansion has nothing to do with matter density. No predictive theories exist which would describe what causes the universe to expand, or what would cause it to contract.

Since we have no idea what caused the expansion to begin, or what laws (if any)the expansion is subject to, we really can't say for sure what it will do in the future. All we know for sure is that it's been expanding for a very long time.

Nevertheless, the universe will die, no matter what path it will take. Even if it does not collapse again, it will reach a point, where all evolution comes to an end. Either, expansion will take over and all matter will disintegrate (Big Rip), or simply all energy transformation processes will stop, because there is no fuel left to drive the fusion process of stars. Therefore, all life and progress will eventually come to an end, regardless of which scenario will become reality.

Or maybe time will simply stop, like it does at the event horizon of a black hole. Then nothing would actually end. Everything would just hang there suspended, waiting for the next moment.

When you allow for relative time, it's possible that the Big Bang happened infinity years ago, but we're seeing time from the perspective of a black hole. The singularity would certainly have had that perspective. So... the first few seconds might have lasted trillions of years, but seemed to take seconds.

space is a flexable medium,and within this are pockets of mass containing all the known elements...like a seed pushed into thick custard.
the gravity holds them together until a crytical reaction point when mass explodes
i visualise this like an inflated rubber glove...the pockets being the fingers and known space the internal hand section, the explosion would be like the finger being pushed back into the glove and expelling its content into the glove/space,
thus creating a galaxy, the finger would return to its original position and in effect create a vacuum void....black hole... which over time would pull in the expelled content...galaxy....and the whole process would repeat i suppose its only as nuts as the big bang theory :-D

Universe can contract back to point A but there is dark matter and energy stopping it from so and hence your thought is impossible.
Sleep well
Sweet dreams!!!!

Originally Posted by kojax

Originally Posted by Dishmaster

Originally Posted by Raziell

Its not a problem if youre a "What you dont know wont hurt you" person. But the thought that any progress will inevitably collapse and repeat itself is very disturbing.

And yes this would involve a numerous, infact eternal chain of big bangs and collapses.

...

At a point it will automatically collapse back on itself creating death. It would be a process of change, which is good - but it would also mean even if you discover all the secrets of the universe and you are able to achieve a utopia of existence, you'd be forced to start over.

First, all evidence we have today seems to indicate that this will not happen. Observations demonstrate that the universal matter density is too low to turn the expansion around.

Except that BBT expansion has nothing to do with matter density. No predictive theories exist which would describe what causes the universe to expand, or what would cause it to contract.

We know that mass bends and affects space. "Gravity" - whatever it really is - is a force that competes with the expansion - whatever it drives. Although we do not know the cause, we can describe its effect very well.

Originally Posted by kojax

Or maybe time will simply stop, like it does at the event horizon of a black hole. Then nothing would actually end. Everything would just hang there suspended, waiting for the next moment.

That's nonsense and a frequent misconception. Time does not stop for those points being at the event horizon. It only stops there for an external observer. If you passed it, you possibly wouldn't even notice anything special until the tidal forces start to tear you apart.

What I find most depressing is the second law of thermodynamics. The more I turn it over and meditate upon it the more anti-life it becomes. I'll bet it figured in Darwin's nightmares.

But maybe we can do something about that. :wink: