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Thread: Where is the closest analog of Solar system?

  1. #1 Where is the closest analog of Solar system? 
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    Trying to unravel the riddle of the origin of the solar system planetary scientists are looking for similar systems that are are being for thousands of light years away. Meanwhile, they ignore at least three analogues inside our own planetary system. This satellite systems of giant planets - Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus. Which of these systems is the most similar to the total solar system and why?


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  3. #2 Re: Where is the closest analog of Solar system? 
    Moderator Moderator Dishmaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrupS
    Trying to unravel the riddle of the origin of the solar system planetary scientists are looking for similar systems that are are being for thousands of light years away. Meanwhile, they ignore at least three analogues inside our own planetary system. This satellite systems of giant planets - Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus. Which of these systems is the most similar to the total solar system and why?
    There are a few reasons - if such a comparison is valid - to choose Jupiter. Already Galilei used this planet with its four Galilean moons to demonstrate the similarity to the entire solar system. It was the first empirical proof that the Earth is at least not the centre of all celestial body movements.

    The second reason is that Jupiter is the largest and most massive planet in the solar system. The lower mass limit of stars being able to fuse at least deuterium is 13 Jupiter masses. While Jupiter is not capable of igniting a fusion process, it still emits radiation due to the gravitational pressure inside this planet, just like protostars do during their evolution to a star. So, it is a thermal energy source, as described here.


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    At first glance, these systems do not have any special fundamental differences from one another. Is that the Galilean moons of Jupiter denser than moons of Saturn or Uranus (Jupiter's moon Io is denser than our moon!). So the protomoonsí disk of Jupiter had a lot of stone and metal. Density of close satellites - Io and Europe is far exceeds the density of satellites - Ganymede and Callisto. And this fact also reminds the solar system - the division of the planets in two groups of giant planets and terrestrial planets. So the system of Jupiter, is the closest to the solar system?

    However, if making such a logical conclusion, we make a big mistake. In fact, the closest analogue, of course, is the system of Saturn. And it is for following reason.

    Among other satellites in the Saturnís system the Titan is distinctly allocated, as well as in the solar system the planets Jupiter is. Letís take their orbital radii as the units of distance. Compare moons of Saturn, lying inside the orbit of Titan, with the terrestrial planets , (lying inside the orbit of Jupiter). Call attention to a pair of moons Dione-Tethys and Enceladus-Mimas. We associate the pair Enceladus-Mimas with the pair of planets Earth-Venus. And what can be associated with a pair Dione-Tethys?
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    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    A problem with looking for planetary analogs is that Jupiter and Saturn did not go through a T-Tauri phase.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    A problem with looking for planetary analogs is that Jupiter and Saturn did not go through a T-Tauri phase.
    That's true. But you could also argue that they are still in it. At least Jupiter is still contracting according to the Helmholtz-Kelvin process. But it does not possess enough mass to leave it and enter a dwarf star phase.

    I would not go as far as comparing individual moons to planets in the solar system.
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    Quite right. Satellite systems did not pass during their formation through a "hot" stage. And in general, all others (besides temperature) conditions in which they have been constructed, radically differed from planetary conditions. Others were the space-time scales, weights and density of initial gas-dust disks, durability of particles of these disks. All was another. And end results have appeared very similar. And it says a lot. This certificate of that there is a simple universal mechanism of formation both planetary, and satellite systems. And having deciphered which we shall solve a problem of an origin of Solar system. And not only it. We can at one stroke cut this Gordian knot! We can split this Gordian knot with one blow!

    In it is all salt of a question. Here it is magic clue to the mystery of the origin of planets.

    I will explain my idea more. Modern mechanisms of planet formation are very complex and confusing. It is believed that the formation of planets is influenced by many factors - the distribution of temperature, density, electromagnetic fields, stickiness and fragility of the dust particles, etc. Enormous role played by case. Planets are formed as a result of random collisions of small celestial bodies.

    Theoretically, this mixture of all the factors should lead to unpredictable consequences. It should lead to an exotic distribution of planets per masses and orbits. Planetary systems, created from almost identical disks should radically differ from each other. Meanwhile, our planetary system is not very different from satellite systems, which are its members. And this is the great paradox.
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  8. #7 Re: Where is the closest analog of Solar system? 
    Forum Freshman geistkiesel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrupS
    Trying to unravel the riddle of the origin of the solar system planetary scientists are looking for similar systems that are are being for thousands of light years away. Meanwhile, they ignore at least three analogues inside our own planetary system. This satellite systems of giant planets - Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus. Which of these systems is the most similar to the total solar system and why?
    One should focus on entities that are near neighbor sufficiently to effect each othe. There is not enough time to find any useful data 'out there' to glean sufficient data from distant solar systems that will rationally serve as a physical basis approximating a recognizable dim blue print of our ss.

    Let's work from present backward to some origin. I see the first question to focus upon is, what does the solar system (ss) look like, and how does it move, what are its motion characteristics over a span of ten years?

    Starting now, I would borrow a system from the Ptolemaics and their 'circles within circles' paradigm. Whatever the reflection of actual physical ss motion the Ptolemaics described, their end product worked - predicting the positions of planets was important to a number of industries, and it worked.

    Cirlces wont work but we all know that ellipses do work, so I urge the reader to see the ss as a mechanism built on a structure of 'ellipses within ellipses' and grasp the three dimensionality of the ss over a period of say 3 or 5 earth years. What are you looking at? It isn't a DNA molecule, but the ss is a fairly linear system of over lapping or enclosed helices with the sun on the axle pulling the ss with its ecliptic plane approximately parallel with the sun's s-axis of motion.

    Dayton Miller measured a relative sun velocity of 210 km/sec which for a year is approx. 55,000,000 sec x 210 ~10^10 km which would be the ~ wavelength of one Earth year trajectory. The lamda of Hg ~ 1/4 Earth's; Venus .8E;Mars 1.9E; Jupiter ~12E;Pluto ~ 250E. mercury would have 4 complete helical segments for each Earth yearly wavelength.

    Gravity:
    Neptune was discovered from anamolies in the orbital trajectory of Uranus. Pluto followed an analysis of Neptune's perturbed trajectory. The inner planets, certainly from Jupiter inward, the two outer planets do not have any effect on the trajectory of Earth, or Hg for instance. This means that the extended force of gravity is decidedly limited as denonstrated by the gravity force distribution withinour ss.

    The forcew distribution is most likely chained where the outer planets linking Pluto to Neptune to Uranus in descending strengths of GF chains. The chain system ends at the sun. The relative excess of the sun mass with respect to any of the planets is such that the planets are going to be reacting to the varying sun-planet chains, little going the other way. I mean, when a pole vaulter throws herself up to 6 meters, the earth doesn't follow her to meet her coming down. The earth doesn't visibly react -- the sun similarly.

    Using a Flandern-Newton model for the distribution of interplanetary gravity forces, the speed of the GF > 2x10^10c, as demonstrated by what the experiments say - google on 'speed of gravity'.

    When one gives the problem some thought, near instantaneous GF distribution appears the only way the ss would work in its current recognizable form. The regulatory system maintaining the extremely ordered inter-planetary exchanges must be via the medium of the conservation of angular momentum. This is an interesting point as the universal totality of spin-1 and spin1/2 systems alone is a study in the conservation of angular momentum. Stern-Gerlach transitions indicate that a spin-1 particle of spin state S transitioning through a SG T segment as S|T|S where the B field is between the '||' the T|S transition involves a realignment of the magnetic monopole spin vector of the particle. This realignment is accomplished in a field free zone, no observable forces to assist, while the T state was maintained by the force of the B field.

    The most observable and basic function of all matter is an actual or latent spin state realignment tendency, where realignment of the 'massive' magnetic monopole requires the appliction of force. In this process the force is not observable, it is unambiguously inferred and therefore, the crucial refomatiron of the prepolarized spin state is guaranteed by the behavior of nonlocal crucial elements providing guidance to, or application of, spin vector motion doggedly obedient to the conservation of angular momentum - a clear example of nonlocal force centers interffacing with observable parameters i.e. the physical particle motion whose spin-1 function is moved by nonlocal causal elements which is clearly demonstrated -- this picture is not best portrayed with standard model QM paradigms'.

    Any ss seminal-existence-analysis ending in a version of a historically common myth of 'GF determined compressed gasses' should be rethunk - a stoichastil gas dynamic as a ss structural medium just wont color the ss's proper morphological squares.
    Mother Nature include time in her creation so everything wouldn't happen all at once. Anon
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    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    Permit me to provide an executive summary of the foregoing:

    "I have terminal brain damage, please help me".
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    Administrator KALSTER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Permit me to provide an executive summary of the foregoing:

    "I have terminal brain damage, please help me".
    Quite.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
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  11. #10  
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrupS
    Among other satellites in the Saturnís system the Titan is distinctly allocated, as well as in the solar system the planets Jupiter is. Letís take their orbital radii as the units of distance. Compare moons of Saturn, lying inside the orbit of Titan, with the terrestrial planets , (lying inside the orbit of Jupiter). Call attention to a pair of moons Dione-Tethys and Enceladus-Mimas. We associate the pair Enceladus-Mimas with the pair of planets Earth-Venus. And what can be associated with a pair Dione-Tethys?
    Since nobody answered my question, I answer myself. Consider the following table.

    Jupiter = 1 ******** Titan = 1 ********* Titania = 1 ********* Ganymede = 1
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    *********************************** Umbriel-0,61 ******* Europe-0,627
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ***************** Rhea-0,431********* Ariel-0,438 *******************
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ************************************************** *** Io-0,394
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Mars-0,293 ******* Dione-0,309 ******* Miranda-0,297 ************
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ***************** Tethys-0,241 *******************************
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Earth-Moon-0,191 * Enceladus-0,195 *** Pack-0,196 ****************
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ***************** МимасĖ0,152 *******************************
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Venus-0,139 **************************************************
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    In this table, the orbital radii of the largest celestial bodies is taken by the units. The table shows that the other celestial bodies are often found around the same positions relative to the main body. Especially there are many similarities between the planetary system and the system of Saturn. Between the planets and moons of Saturn establish the following correspondence Mars - Dion, Earth - Enceladus. These bodies occupy approximately the same position relative to Jupiter and Titan respectivly. Pay attention to the fact that the Earth has a twin - Venus, while Enceladus - Mimas. Therefore, there is a match Venus - Mimas, although their orbital radii are not so close. Dions, analogue of Mars, have the twin - Tethys , but Mars has not twin. But letís remember about giant impact hypothesis of the Earth with the planet of Marís size. Therefore, we associate Tethys ancestor of the Moon.
    There is Rhea in the system of Saturn. In the planetary system in its place is nothing. But there is the asteroid belt, in the place which was supposed to be born Phaeton. So Phaeton is analogue
    for Rhea.
    As a result, we arrive at the following comparison.
    Rhea - Phaethon, Dione - Mars, Tethys - the ancestor of the moon, Enceladus - Earth, Mimas - Venus. This is the amazing similarity. In fact conditions at which were created two systems were absolutely various.
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