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Thread: Questions related to sun

  1. #1 Questions related to sun 
    Forum Freshman Hungry wolf's Avatar
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    Hi every body ^_^



    I was wondering about 2 issues .. well i have the answers .. but i want to know the
    scientific answers about them ^_^'


    the first 1 .. how can we see the sun ( the star called sun ) ?

    at the early morning .. we can look at the sun and see it clearly .. does this follow the normal way for seeing everything .. or there is a special mechanism for seeing the sources of light





    the second issue .. how the sun beam / light behaves ?

    does we consider the sun as infinite sources of light ( that is .. each point on the sun surface is considered as a source of light ) ..

    or .. we consider the sun a huge source of light ?


    i want the final result for this question ^^ .. i mean, the light reaches the earth can be considered as which 1 of those 2 ?




    hope u can confirm the answers for me ^_^






    ^_^


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  3. #2  
    Time Lord
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    1)- The sun is easier to see in the morning because there's more air between you and it. You're looking at it sideways across the surface of the Earth, so that means you're also looking at it sideways through the atmosphere, instead of straight upwards (which is a shorter distance).



    2)- Point source, or million point sources...

    Technically, the sun is like a gazillion light sources. The chemical/nuclear reactions that create the light are happening all over its surface in different parts. Though by that definition hardly anything actually would count as a point source.

    It depends on how one chooses to look at it.


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  4. #3  
    Forum Freshman Hungry wolf's Avatar
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    Dear kojax ^_^ :


    1)- The sun is easier to see in the morning because there's more air between you and it
    fine ^_^


    You're looking at it sideways across the surface of the Earth
    ummm ...

    pardon me .. but i didn't get that ^_^'


    anyway .. i don't think that it has any relation with my question ^_^



    so that means you're also looking at it sideways through the atmosphere, instead of straight upwards (which is a shorter distance)
    oh !


    now i get it ^^


    but this wasn't my Q ^_^'


    the "early morning" point in my Q was to demonstrate the ability of seeing the sun ..

    forget the sun ..

    i'm concerning about seeing ANY source of light ..



    the science says that i can see an object cuz the light reflects from that object to my eye ..

    this is for the objects which r not a source of light .. what about the source of light itself ( like the sun or the stars ) ?

    what's the mechanism for seeing those sources ?


    ^_^



    2)- Point source, or million point sources
    oh :|

    was my Q an undetermined subject to the science :? ?



    Technically, the sun is like a gazillion light sources
    that's fine ^_^


    The chemical/nuclear reactions that create the light are happening all over its surface in different parts
    also fine ^_^


    anno ^_^'


    my concern is about the
    result as i mentioned ^_~



    Though by that definition hardly anything actually would count as a point source
    then ?


    It depends on how one chooses to look at it
    ~_~


    i hope that's not the science answer ~_~





    to make it simple .. does the light reaches the earth as this shape ( no intersection between beams of light ) :










    or .. it's as shown below ( there are infinite of intersections between the beams ) :










    ^_^






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  5. #4  
    Moderator Moderator Dishmaster's Avatar
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    I think the misunderstanding is a result of your questions which are somewhat vague. Let me try to answer:

    1) It does not matter, whether light is just reflected or directly received from the light source. As soon as (enough) photons hit the retina of the eye, we see something. Now, what exactly we see is something else. Every photon or ensemble of photons contains the history of interactions with other material (emission, absorption, scattering, etc.). In this way, the intensity (number of photons per second) as well as the wavelength changes. One example: The light from the sun contains a well defined set of photons (planck radiation) that produces a certain impression of colour in our eye. So, from space, we see the sun almost in its natural state. As soon as light passes the atmosphere, some of the photons are scattered away. This is most severe near the horizon, where the path of the light to our eyes is the longest. This leads to a change of colour e.g. red sunset (mixture of wavelengths changes) and the intensity. This means, we still see the sun, but modified. On a hazy day, we see the photons reflected from small water particles, i.e. it is misty. These photons also stem from the sun, but this time, we only see the mist.

    2) The sun's surface is the only visible source of light for us. We cannot look into the deep layers of the sun; it is almost fully intransparent. Therefore, we only see the photons as soon they leave the sun's surface. On their way from the core to the surface, photons are scattered strongly, and it takes millions of years until they reach the surface. It is more diffusion of photons than really radiation. Once arrived there, they can propagate almost unhindered. This tells you that your second graph describes the situation correctly.
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  6. #5  
    Forum Freshman Hungry wolf's Avatar
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    Dear Dishmaster ^_^ :


    I think the misunderstanding is a result of your questions
    i guess so ^_^'


    that's y i tried to explain them more in the second replay ^_~



    which are somewhat vague
    >_<


    I'm terribly sorry about this >_<


    have my apologize ^_^'



    Let me try to answer
    please ^_^


    1) It does not matter
    ................


    whether light is just reflected or directly received from the light source. As soon as (enough) photons hit the retina of the eye, we see something
    this line exactly is what i'm looking for ^^


    so, to see the source of the light .. the light comes directly from that source and inter your retina ^_^



    Now, what exactly we see is something else
    continue ...


    Every photon or ensemble of photons contains the history of interactions with other material (emission, absorption, scattering, etc.)
    ok ?


    In this way, the intensity (number of photons per second) as well as the wavelength changes
    sure ^_^


    depending on what science says ^_^



    One example: The light from the sun contains a well defined set of photons (planck radiation) that produces a certain impression of colour in our eye. So, from space, we see the sun almost in its natural state. As soon as light passes the atmosphere, some of the photons are scattered away. This is most severe near the horizon, where the path of the light to our eyes is the longest. This leads to a change of colour e.g. red sunset (mixture of wavelengths changes) and the intensity
    i understand this ^_^


    and i would thank you about it even it's not needed ^^



    This means, we still see the sun, but modified. On a hazy day, we see the photons reflected from small water particles, i.e. it is misty. These photons also stem from the sun, but this time, we only see the mist
    ^_^


    2) The sun's surface is the only visible source of light for us
    well and good ^_^


    We cannot look into the deep layers of the sun; it is almost fully intransparent
    anno ^_^'


    y r u mentioning this ^_^' ?



    Therefore, we only see the photons as soon they leave the sun's surface
    y did u mention this


    On their way from the core to the surface, photons are scattered strongly, and it takes millions of years until they reach the surface
    i don't care about the core ^_^'

    the surface of the sun is my concern ^_^'



    It is more diffusion of photons than really radiation. Once arrived there, they can propagate almost unhindered



    This tells you that your second graph describes the situation correctly
    ummm


    anno ^_^'


    i hope u didn't misunderstand the purpose of the second Q .. if u did, then i would apologize for anything on the graphs that made u bringing the core stuff >_<


    however, if u understand the Q well and u were with the second graph that means u r saying that the light beams ( out of the sun surface ) are intersecting with each other O_o !


    that means also, u r saying that every single point on the surface would work as a source of light by itself .. in other words, there is no difference between the light coming from a cigarette, for example, and the light coming from that single point on the sun surface !



    well .. i prefer to clarify the 2 graphs to remove any confusion about the lines shown there ^_^' ..

    the lines outside the circle ( sun ) in the first graph is nothing but an extended of the radiuses/diameters of the circle itself ..

    i don't care about the radius inside the circle .. i'm talking about the lines that leaves the circle ( or outside the circle ) .. and it indicates that the sun work as a huge source of light ..



    in the second graph, each point indicates a light source by itself .. no matter where is it ( nothing in the core .. imagine the circle as 3D sphere .. and the point in the middle is a point on a surface ) ..



    shell i clarify it much more >_<


    or it's clear enough ^_^' .. if so, do u still with second the graph dear
    dishmaster ^_^ ?





    ^_^
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  7. #6  
    Moderator Moderator Dishmaster's Avatar
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    Your first graph would only make sense, if the photons originated all in one point inside the sun and would radiate away in every direction. This is why I came up with the core as the source of light. How else would two photons on the opposite sides of the "know" in what direction they should travel?

    It is clear that in principle every point on the sun's surface can be described as individual light sources. From there, photons travel in every direction. If this were not the case, we would only be able to see a spot of the sun that is closest to us, i.e. along a radius pointing from the centre of the sun to the Earth. Hence, your second graph describes the actual situation very well.
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  8. #7  
    Forum Freshman Hungry wolf's Avatar
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    Dear dishmaster ^_^ :

    Your first graph would only make sense, if the photons originated all in one point inside the sun and would radiate away in every direction
    continue ..


    This is why I came up with the core as the source of light
    aha ^^


    actually .. the first graph is equivalent to this graph :






    i would apologize again for my poor illustration ^_^'



    How else would two photons on the opposite sides of the "know" in what direction they should travel?
    i didn't get ur q ^_^'

    but as a try for a guess .. i would assume that u forgot to type the word ( sun ) or ( source ) .. if so, the sentence would become :


    How else would two photons on the opposite sides of the SUN "know" in what direction they should travel?


    and the answer of ur q is easy .. but i hope this is not the science's way to deny the opposite assumption ( in general ) ~_~


    the answer is : the photons of the point that is considered to be a source of light will cancel the all photons of the neighbor point ( which's also considered to be a source of light as well) but the one that's an extend of the radius of the sun / source itself ^_^


    and that's how the source of light gets amplified .. it's the Interference and diffraction characteristic of light ^_~


    whatever was the way .. the result is the most important thing ^^



    and we will see ^^



    It is clear that in principle every point on the sun's surface can be described as individual light sources
    and y ^_^ ?


    From there, photons travel in every direction
    that's wrong ^_^


    If this were not the case, we would only be able to see a spot of the sun that is closest to us, i.e. along a radius pointing from the centre of the sun to the Earth
    great ^^

    that's a kind of a result ^_^


    but u r still wrong dear
    dishmaster ^_^

    and i will prove that to u ^^



    Hence, your second graph describes the actual situation very well
    ^_^



    ummm .. y do u think i asked the first q ^_^ ?

    i did because it's related to the second, although it talks about vision ^_^



    well .. forget about it for the time being .. i'll prove that ur second answer is wrong ^_^



    u said that the second graph is the right 1 .. but u ignored a lot of natural facts ( or u opposed the reality ) >_<




    the first one .. if the second graph was right,


    why there is one, and only ONE, shadow generates from
    whatever object exposed to sun light ?



    if each point is considered as a source of light, that means we have to have more than 1 shadow ( a semi-circle shadow ) that's WIDER than the original object !

    unfortunately, there is only one shadow generates form the sun light and it has the same width as its object ..

    the shadow may extend or shrink .. but there is no shadow wider than its object if the object exposed to a source of light ..

    ===> the sun is a source of light ^_~


    if u have any objection .. i would be glad to hear it ^_^







    the second one .. if the second graph is correct there should be infinite intersections between the light beams ( as i mentioned before ) ..

    then:



    how can u explain the following photos which show
    that there are no intersections between the beams ..
    not even a single 1 !!













    and since there is no intersection at all .. the second graph can't be right by any chance ^_~


    and this is a proof that the lights behave as shown in the first graph ( the sun is a huge source of light ) ^^



    unless u have something to comment on these reality of course ^_^







    the third point .. if the second graph is the right 1 ..


    why we see the light which comes from sun
    as extended radiuses of sphere called sun ?!



    check this out ^^ :









    this also proves that light comes from the sun matches the theory of the first graph ^^


    unless u have an explanation of course ^_^






    so .. to prove that the second 1 is the right 1 .. u have to explain all the three points i've listed in a way that wouldn't make a conflict with other ( scientific facts ) ^_^




    do u agree dear
    dishmaster ^_^ ?








    ^_^
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  9. #8  
    Forum Freshman Hungry wolf's Avatar
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    >_<



    no body got the scientific answers >_<


    well .. i think i would go to Pseudoscience forum ^_^




    well .. ce u there then ^^




    ja ne ~
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  10. #9  
    Moderator Moderator Dishmaster's Avatar
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    I am very busy right now, but I will get to you later. The short answer is that the sun produces more than one shadow. Best example: Lunar eclipse (umbra and penumbra).

    BTW, I would prefer that you leave out the large images from your post. Also the colourful writing is quite disturbing. This all makes your posts unnecessarily long.
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  11. #10  
    Time Lord
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    Only the surface of the sun even radiates light we can see. So, it's like a bazillion point sources, but most of them are concentrated in one general part of the sky.

    As far as light reflecting, if you see light coming from the direction where the sun is, that light has not been reflected. Only the lower bands of light, like yellow, and red manage to make it through the atmosphere without getting scattered. The scattered blue light gets reflected around so much that it's no longer apparent where it originated from. (Which is why the sky is blue.)

    The thing about it being red in the morning is that there's more air physically located between you and the sun at that time of the day, so less of the blue light is reaching you than normal.
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  12. #11  
    Forum Freshman Hungry wolf's Avatar
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    dear dishmaster ^_^ :


    I am very busy right now
    >_<


    i'm so sorry to interrupt u with this topic >_<



    but I will get to you later
    take ur time dear ^_^


    i'll be waiting ^^



    The short answer is that the sun produces more than one shadow



    Best example: Lunar eclipse (umbra and penumbra)
    no no no no ^_^



    no my dear ^_^




    first .. u have to answer my questions in order to prove ur point .. you can't prove it by an example only ^_~


    second .. if u want to come with an example, it has to be something clear .. not a RESULT that neither i nor u can prove it ^_^'


    third .. i would recommend u to give an example from earth's DAILY phenomena .. not somethin in a space happen from time to time ^_~



    if u said :
    no hungry wolf .. light coming from sun generates more than 1 shadow to an object which's exposed to it .. i would ask u for an evidence ^_^

    but ur example is out of discussion >_<


    and put in mind please that the daily phenomena's evidences are
    surpassing time-to-time phenomena's evidences ^^




    BTW .. i told u :


    so .. to prove that the second 1 is the right 1 .. u have to explain
    all the three points i've listed in a way that wouldn't make a conflict with other ( scientific facts ) ^_^



    i understand that u r short of time ^_^ .. but don't give such answer plz ^_^'



    BTW, I would prefer that you leave out the large images from your post
    >_<


    but i think they r better in explaining the things for me ^_^'



    Also the colourful writing is quite disturbing
    >_<


    so sorry >_<



    but it's my style .. i can do nothing about it >_<


    i'll ask for ur forgiveness ^_^'




    This all makes your posts unnecessarily long
    ^_^'







    ^_^




    ========================



    dear
    kojax ^_^ :



    Only the surface of the sun even radiates light we can see
    so ?


    So, it's like a bazillion point sources, but most of them are concentrated in one general part of the sky
    would u explain more ?


    As far as light reflecting, if you see light coming from the direction where the sun is, that light has not been reflected
    reflected by sky toward my eye .. right ?


    Only the lower bands of light, like yellow, and red manage to make it through the atmosphere without getting scattered
    fine ..

    and i understand from what u said that light beam is filtered by earth atmosphere .. so, certain wave-length will pass ( like red and yellow ) .. is that right ?



    The scattered blue light gets reflected around so much that it's no longer apparent where it originated from. (Which is why the sky is blue.)
    fine .. i would say that the blue color doesn't reach my eye since it is reflected around ^_^

    is that right 2 ?



    The thing about it being red in the morning is that there's more air physically located between you and the sun at that time of the day, so less of the blue light is reaching you than normal
    anno ^_^'


    this has nothing to do with the Q ^_^'



    and u explained the color story .. but u didn't answer the Q >_<


    r u with me or with
    dishmaster ( or neither 1 of us hehehehehhe ^^ ) .. and what is ur evidences or proofs that support ur answer ^_^ ?






    ^_^
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  13. #12 Re: Questions related to sun 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hungry wolf
    Hi every body ^_^



    I was wondering about 2 issues .. well i have the answers .. but i want to know the
    scientific answers about them ^_^'


    the first 1 .. how can we see the sun ( the star called sun ) ?

    at the early morning .. we can look at the sun and see it clearly .. does this follow the normal way for seeing everything .. or there is a special mechanism for seeing the sources of light





    the second issue .. how the sun beam / light behaves ?

    does we consider the sun as infinite sources of light ( that is .. each point on the sun surface is considered as a source of light ) ..

    or .. we consider the sun a huge source of light ?


    i want the final result for this question ^^ .. i mean, the light reaches the earth can be considered as which 1 of those 2 ?




    hope u can confirm the answers for me ^_^






    ^_^
    To your 1st question, yes, there is a special mechanism for seeing the Sun.
    That mechanism is the hydrogen atom and its nature of electron transitions.

    Read up on the Bohr Atomic (planetary) model.

    The old idea of light was accepted as a contuous wave in a sign wave pattern with the electric component and the magnetic component at 90 degree angles to each other.

    But Max Planck transformed that view by determining that light was a 'Quanta" of energy. In other words, just a pulse of light.

    So we see the light as just pulses (photons).
    We do not see the continuous waves that the HA's radiate that are known as 'standing waves'.

    These photons are leaving the SUN in enormously huge quantities as single 'one line' pulses. But collectively, they look like one giant ball of radiation.

    You may find my article here entitled 'Creation of Photons' on one of the pages in the Cosmology sector.

    Cosmo
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  14. #13  
    Moderator Moderator Dishmaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hungry wolf
    why there is one, and only ONE, shadow generates from whatever object exposed to sun light ?

    if each point is considered as a source of light, that means we have to have more than 1 shadow ( a semi-circle shadow ) that's WIDER than the original object !
    This is only a misconception. You will notice that the shadows are not very well confined. They get fuzzier the farther away the screen displaying the shadow is from the object casting it. At some point, the shadow disappears completely. The lunar eclipse is a perfect example for this.



    You see that the resulting shape of the shadow cast by the Earth is an consequence of superimposed shadows. This phenomenon of penumbra and penumbra can be observed and is a well known fact.

    If the light emitted from the sun were pointlike the shadows should be very well confined, but they are not. This can only be explained by an extended light source like the sun is. You can even see by observing the sun that it is not pointlike. So all the light we see from the sun cannot be emitted by a single point inside the sun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hungry wolf
    if the second graph is correct there should be infinite intersections between the light beams ( as i mentioned before ) ..

    then:how can u explain the following photos which show
    that there are no intersections between the beams ..
    not even a single 1 !!
    The rays and beams are not intersecting, because the sun is so far away and the Earth is so small. Only photons that are emitted in roughly the same direction (i.e. the direction towards the Earth) can hit the Earth. The angle subtended by Earth when seen from the Sun is very small:



    Here, is half the angle of the Earth, Mio km is the distance between the Sun and the Earth, km is the radius of the Earth. This results in arcminutes (one arcminute is 1/60 of a degree). So, any ray deviating by more than this angle from the direction to the Earth will not hit it. Therefore, the light from the sun can be considered as being composed of nearly parallel rays of light.

    The photos do not prove anything anyway, because the light seen here is mostly scattered by the clouds, i.e. the light path has changed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hungry wolf
    why we see the light which comes from sun
    as extended radiuses of sphere called sun ?!
    We don't, although the pictures seem to show that. This is a result of overexposure. If you watch the sun through an attenuating filter (never watch the sun with your naked eyes or - even worse - through magnifying instruments: you will damage them, if you do), you just see a sharply confined circle (besides the corona that can be seen during a solar eclipse and some small eruptions). I would recommend you visit a public observatory and ask the staff there to show you the sun with a telescope. You can use filters in order not to damage your eyes or just project the image of the sun on a white screen. You will see that there is nothing like radially distributed rays.
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  15. #14 Re: Questions related to sun 
    Moderator Moderator Dishmaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hungry wolf
    the first 1 .. how can we see the sun ( the star called sun ) ?

    at the early morning .. we can look at the sun and see it clearly .. does this follow the normal way for seeing everything .. or there is a special mechanism for seeing the sources of light
    I am not sure, if I understand your question right. The photons (or light waves if you like) penetrate our eyes and hit the receptors of the retina. They transform this into electric signals that are transmitted to the brain via the nerves that originate at the "blind spot".



    This is the same mechanism with everything that we see.
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  16. #15  
    Time Lord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hungry wolf


    kojax ^_^ :[/b][/size]


    Only the surface of the sun even radiates light we can see
    so ?


    So, it's like a bazillion point sources, but most of them are concentrated in one general part of the sky
    would u explain more ?
    Each point on the surface acts as its own light source.

    That's why, even something were to block your view of the center of the sun, you could still see the edges. The edges are separate, and independent light sources.

    As far as light reflecting, if you see light coming from the direction where the sun is, that light has not been reflected
    reflected by sky toward my eye .. right ?
    No. Totally unreflected in every way.

    The light starts out at the sun, and follows a perfectly straight line to your eye, with no deviations.



    Only the lower bands of light, like yellow, and red manage to make it through the atmosphere without getting scattered
    fine ..

    and i understand from what u said that light beam is filtered by earth atmosphere .. so, certain wave-length will pass ( like red and yellow ) .. is that right ?
    Yes. Blue gets blocked, but yellow and red make it through unchanged.


    The scattered blue light gets reflected around so much that it's no longer apparent where it originated from. (Which is why the sky is blue.)
    fine .. i would say that the blue color doesn't reach my eye since it is reflected around ^_^
    is that right 2 ?
    Yeah. That's right.

    The thing about it being red in the morning is that there's more air physically located between you and the sun at that time of the day, so less of the blue light is reaching you than normal
    [size=14][b]anno ^_^'


    this has nothing to do with the Q ^_^'



    and u explained the color story .. but u didn't answer the Q >_<


    r u with me or with
    dishmaster [color=blue]( or neither 1 of us hehehehehhe ^^ ) .. and what is ur evidences or proofs that support ur answer ^_^ ?
    [/quote]

    I might have misunderstood your question.
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  17. #16  
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    Hungry Wolf,
    please cease using your bright coloured, large font, wide line spacing. It is distracting. Contrary to your earlier remark you can do something about it. Write normally.
    Consider this a friendly request. Don't let us have to move to Stage II.
    Thank you
    Ophiolite
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