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Thread: why tonal language spoken countries are not the best in musics?

  1. #1 why tonal language spoken countries are not the best in musics? 
    Forum Sophomore unknown_artist's Avatar
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    Greetings.

    I am wondering only
    why tonal language spoken countries (e.g. china,indonesia..etc) are not the best countries in musics ?

    Regards


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  3. #2  
    Time Lord Paleoichneum's Avatar
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    In Who's opinion are they not good at music? Who's interpretarion of music?


    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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  4. #3  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unknown_artist View Post
    Greetings.

    I am wondering only
    why tonal language spoken countries (e.g. china,indonesia..etc) are not the best countries in musics ?

    Regards
    Not sure why they should be. All languages use pitch to some extent. For example, in English the pitch rises at the end of a sentence to indicate a question (or that the speaker is under 35!)
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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  5. #4  
    Forum Sophomore unknown_artist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    In Who's opinion are they not good at music? Who's interpretarion of music?
    sorry,while I did not imply that they were not "good" ,I clearly predicted that they were not the best ones (yes ,it is my own prediction)

    but if you claim that this is incorrect,could you prove it?
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  6. #5  
    Forum Sophomore unknown_artist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by unknown_artist View Post
    Greetings.

    I am wondering only
    why tonal language spoken countries (e.g. china,indonesia..etc) are not the best countries in musics ?

    Regards
    Not sure why they should be. All languages use pitch to some extent. For example, in English the pitch rises at the end of a sentence to indicate a question (or that the speaker is under 35!)
    as I know the tone is very important in music but more generally it is told by "ear ability". I thought that those people's "ear ability" would be stronger ..
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  7. #6  
    Time Lord Paleoichneum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unknown_artist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    In Who's opinion are they not good at music? Who's interpretarion of music?
    sorry,while I did not imply that they were not "good" ,I clearly predicted that they were not the best ones (yes ,it is my own prediction)

    but if you claim that this is incorrect,could you prove it?
    WHO's "best"? My "best"? Your "best"? Mariah Carry's "Best'?

    Best is NOT an empirical measure in any form, so your assertion is not validatable, but pure individual opinion.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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  8. #7  
    Forum Sophomore unknown_artist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by unknown_artist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    In Who's opinion are they not good at music? Who's interpretarion of music?
    sorry,while I did not imply that they were not "good" ,I clearly predicted that they were not the best ones (yes ,it is my own prediction)

    but if you claim that this is incorrect,could you prove it?
    WHO's "best"? My "best"? Your "best"? Mariah Carry's "Best'?

    Best is NOT an empirical measure in any form, so your assertion is not validatable, but pure individual opinion.
    that is right.

    but how to make an empirical measurement in musics?
    do you know/have any method?
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  9. #8  
    Forum Sophomore unknown_artist's Avatar
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    - I only pay attention to popularity as a tool for measurement-
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  10. #9  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unknown_artist View Post
    as I know the tone is very important in music but more generally it is told by "ear ability". I thought that those people's "ear ability" would be stronger ..
    But European languages use "tone" (pitch) as well. I don't think there is a language that doesn't.
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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  11. #10  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unknown_artist View Post
    - I only pay attention to popularity as a tool for measurement-
    That is not a very good measure. Popular with who? And how do you measure popularity?

    You might look at the number of people who can play an instrument (but that could be distorted by social factors). Or maybe the proportion of people who have perfect pitch.
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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  12. #11  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unknown_artist View Post
    Greetings.

    I am wondering only
    why tonal language spoken countries (e.g. china,indonesia..etc) are not the best countries in musics ?
    Indonesian is not a tonal language.
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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  13. #12  
    Forum Sophomore unknown_artist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by unknown_artist View Post
    Greetings.

    I am wondering only
    why tonal language spoken countries (e.g. china,indonesia..etc) are not the best countries in musics ?
    Indonesian is not a tonal language.
    is this reference a proof that it was a tonal language?


    *** Vincent J. van Heuven & Ellen van ZantenLeiden University Centre for Linguistics , Prosody in Indonesian Languages ,ISBN-13: 978-90-78328-44-5


    furthermore,I had had several indonesian friends in the past and the tone were being highly affected when they were speaking.
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  14. #13  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unknown_artist View Post
    is this reference a proof that it was a tonal language?
    "Indonesian is not a kind of tonal language like Chinese, Thai, or Vietnamese.[7]"
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_language

    "non-tonal"
    https://www.ethnologue.com/language/ind


    *** Vincent J. van Heuven & Ellen van ZantenLeiden University Centre for Linguistics , Prosody in Indonesian Languages ,ISBN-13: 978-90-78328-44-5
    As I said, all languages use pitch (and rhythm). Not all languages are tonal.

    That publication suggests that some dialects of Indonesian may be tonal (perhaps picked up from nearby tonal languages?)
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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  15. #14  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by unknown_artist View Post
    - I only pay attention to popularity as a tool for measurement-
    That is not a very good measure. Popular with who? And how do you measure popularity?

    You might look at the number of people who can play an instrument (but that could be distorted by social factors). Or maybe the proportion of people who have perfect pitch.
    well , the way you provided might really be one of actual ways to measure. no problem to include ability in musics ,it is already the centre of our discussion. but as you said it does NOT provide real results (or I think so. it is unclear parameter or it might be enclosed reality)

    the popularity that I mention here is very very simple. just look the number of any remarked musics' listening ratio on you tube.

    like this. (this is a popular one)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60ItHLz5WEA
    Last edited by unknown_artist; November 7th, 2018 at 10:16 AM.
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  16. #15  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unknown_artist View Post
    the popularity that I mention here is very very simple. just look the number of the any remarked musics' listening ratio on you tube.
    Sales and downloads might be a better measure. But this is complicated by many factors. For example, China has a large domestic market (although I don't know how easily available sales figures are) but I doubt they are very popular with non-Chinese speaking people. Indonesia has a population larger than the US, but American music sells more around the world partly because it is in English.
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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  17. #16  
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    update

    their brain is also different. I can't find that article but in scientific reorts there was an article specifically mentioning this subject.

    now,I am trying to learn how the tone was being used in chinese , and I am almost sure that their approach (to the voice) is different than non-polyfonic language speakers.
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  18. #17  
    Time Lord Paleoichneum's Avatar
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    Cite your souce for the brain difference, and specify what that difference is. Then we will explore if there is anything more to discuss here.

    As it stands, "best" is highly subjective and not at all relevant
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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  19. #18  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Cite your souce for the brain difference, and specify what that difference is. Then we will explore if there is anything more to discuss here.

    As it stands, "best" is highly subjective and not at all relevant
    unfortunately I lost m archive and cannot find that article. but why are you saying that it was irrelevant?

    lets consider these two cases:

    1) animals are good at anything that they have tendency or specific conditions to do that (like a talent)
    (e.g.:nightingales are good at crowing,bees are in honey production,etc)
    2) we are generally being accepted/known as more intelligible and better (or particularly "the best") in any filed that we have specific education.
    for instance any physcist is beng known better than any musician in common.or a medical scientist is known as better than any mathematician in common.

    we can boost these samples.

    here my rational reason is that I think that tonal language requires specific talent.
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  20. #19  
    Samurai of Logic Falconer360's Avatar
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    He's saying that it is irrelevant because your idea of best and another person's idea of best will be totally different especially with music. So for instance, I think the best music is heavy metal, with screaming vocals. Stuff like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPSenKymLwk whereas you or Paleo will think that the best is something totally different.
    "For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled." Hunter S Thompson

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    - Yagyu Munenori

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  21. #20  
    Time Lord Paleoichneum's Avatar
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    Who is "we"?

    The rest of your waffle is just that, waffle
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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  22. #21  
    Theatre Whore babe's Avatar
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    As a professional, I attended a seminar on atonal music.

    It was an interesting concept and as the Music (master) in theatre along with the hokey pokey.

    Some languages are very atonal. Japanese and Chinese though not so much Korean.

    Eastern European, South American, also but Norwegian is rather da da da da da da in tonality.
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  23. #22  
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    As a professional, I attended a seminar on atonal music.

    It was an interesting concept and as the Music (master) in theatre along with the hokey pokey.

    Some languages are very atonal. Japanese and Chinese though not so much Korean.

    Eastern European, South American, also but Norwegian is rather da da da da da da in tonality.
    Atonal means "flat" ,does it? And so lacking in expressivity? Robotic?

    I can see why the use of tones in the spoken language might have an influence on the way music is performed .

    Close to home, the Welsh have a pretty sing song speech and are (as I understand) renowned for group singing.
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  24. #23  
    Theatre Whore babe's Avatar
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    Actually it is music that is written in no key or mode......but not necessarily flat....a G can be "flat" if someone is singing an F# alongside it.

    I think the Scotch and the Welsh would have those attributes.
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  25. #24  
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Actually it is music that is written in no key or mode......but not necessarily flat....a G can be "flat" if someone is singing an F# alongside it.

    I think the Scotch and the Welsh would have those attributes.
    So everyday speech can be "in key" or "out of key...? Or maybe "what key"?
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  26. #25  
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    Speech can be off key........it happens....listen to Cheeto! LOL...he does it often.
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