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Thread: Seal and inscription

  1. #1 Seal and inscription 
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    Hi, Im not sure if that's the correct section but I havent found anything more closely related to my problem. My father and I collect antiques, paintings, sculptures, graphics and so on. Recently we have acquired a painting, nothing special really, mid 50's of XIX century, however when we removed it from the frame we found something else.

    imageshack.us/a/img19/9643/9gsr.jpg
    imageshack.us/a/img545/9370/mmll.jpg
    imageshack.us/a/img820/7695/3srm.jpg

    We suspect, based on the dry seal, that it must be some kind of colonial document, spanish or portoguese maybe from baroque. Other than that we know nothing. We werent able to trace the seal or decipher the inscription. If you have any ideas about the document's origins or its meaning please share.


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  3. #2  
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    I'm re-posting your links so they be clickable.
    http://imageshack.us/a/img820/7695/3srm.jpg
    http://imageshack.us/a/img545/9370/mmll.jpg
    http://imageshack.us/a/img19/9643/9gsr.jpg





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  4. #3  
    Forum Senior pineapples's Avatar
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    I’m finding the image of the hand scripted writing too blurred for me to convert the characters into a more legible format. Can you type out the message? That could at least identify the writing to be Spanish or Portuguese. Then someone here might find it easier to get it translated.

    Unless that is what you meant when you said you can’t decipher the inscription?
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  5. #4  
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    That's the thing, I'm unable to even read it.

    I'm gonna make a hq scan tomorrow and upload it
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  6. #5  
    Cooking Something Good MacGyver1968's Avatar
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    Considering the seal has a crown at the top of the shield...I imagine this might be the royal seal of Spain, possibly..or some other royal dude.

    Coat of arms of the King of Spain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



    Here's an enhancement of the seal
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  7. #6  
    Cooking Something Good MacGyver1968's Avatar
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    and the script:

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  8. #7  
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    much appreciated
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  9. #8  
    Cooking Something Good MacGyver1968's Avatar
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    You got me curious...let's go all "Hardy Boys" on this bad boy, and figure it out. I'd really like to know. Who knows, it might be valuable, either money-wise or historically.
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  10. #9  
    Cooking Something Good MacGyver1968's Avatar
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    Where do you live? If you're near a university, it might be worth a trip to the history department...you might make some bearded prof's day.
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  11. #10  
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    What are those nine markings on the shield? Looks like each marking is a lion except for the 3 in the middle column, which I can’t make out.
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  12. #11  
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post
    Here's an enhancement of the seal
    The Shield grid has either lions or gryphons in positions 1-7 and 9, and some of them appear to be facing in different directions. I can't make out what is in position 8 though.
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  13. #12  
    Cooking Something Good MacGyver1968's Avatar
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    TB, if you could take another photo...possibly using the "macro" setting for clearer close ups it would really help. I can post these on another board, that might have some people who could help
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  14. #13  
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    That would be awesome, I'll upload an hq scan tomorrow. As for university, I'm from Poland, Lodz and the nearest heraldic specialist is about 200 km away so i'll save this one for last.
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  15. #14  
    Cooking Something Good MacGyver1968's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TBiela View Post
    That would be awesome, I'll upload an hq scan tomorrow. As for university, I'm from Poland, Lodz and the nearest heraldic specialist is about 200 km away so i'll save this one for last.
    After you take the clearer pictures, you might want to email them to the university or universities. If it's someone famous, even a laundry list could be valuable. Or it could have some historical significance.

    edit: I would also include a photo of the painting (front and back) and the frame.
    Last edited by MacGyver1968; November 4th, 2013 at 11:13 AM.
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  16. #15  
    Forum Senior pineapples's Avatar
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    Would a Danish coat of arms be out of the question?
    Coat of arms of Denmark - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Two guards standing between a shield with a crown above it, and lions.
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  17. #16  
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    pineapples: We thought about it but the guards on that mystery seal have very distinctive tribal clothes which most resemble those of south americans cultures: mayan, aztec.
    MacGyver1968: That's actually a good idea, thanks.
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  18. #17  
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    HQ scan as promised http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/1808/7nol.jpg I hope now it will be easier to identify this piece
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  19. #18  
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    This are all that I'm able to make out from the enhanced image, and I'm unable to identify the two supporters flanking the coat of arms(?). You may find the following link to be educational if you'd like to learn more about heraldries.

    http://www.internationalheraldry.com/

    Royal Coronet (with Plumes/Feathers?)


    Gryphon (Right Facing) Gryphon (Right Facing) Gryphon (Left Facing)
    Gryphon (Right Facing) Lion (Left Facing) Gryphon (Left Facing)
    Gryphon (Right Facing) ? Gryphon (Left Facing)
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  20. #19  
    Forum Senior pineapples's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TBiela View Post
    HQ scan as promised http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/1808/7nol.jpg I hope now it will be easier to identify this piece
    Hmmm, the writing looks more like English to me than Spanish. I don’t see any accented characters or long words with 'a' at the end, I'd normally associate with Spanish (I don't speak Spanish mind! ). The first word looks like ‘James’
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  21. #20  
    Cooking Something Good MacGyver1968's Avatar
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    My sister is an art history major, I just sent the image to her...maybe she knows someone at school that could help.
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  22. #21  
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    MacGyver: Thanks man, that's really awesome.
    Scooby: The site is full of useful info, I'll definitely dig in to that in my spare time. Also the figures of the gryphons differ from each other, right top and right middle looks simmilar though diffrent in detail(tail, shape of wings), don't know if it matters.
    Pineapples: I did some research and you're right, spanish and portugese writing samples from baroque looks diffrent than this, there are accented characters all over the place. On the other hand british crown is pretty distinct and does not match the crown shape visible on the seal.
    Last edited by TBiela; November 5th, 2013 at 07:22 PM.
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  23. #22  
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    Quote Originally Posted by TBiela View Post
    Scooby: The site is full of useful info, I'll definitely dig in to that in my spare time. Also the figures of the gryphons differ from each other, right top and right middle looks simmilar though diffrent in detail(tail, shape of wings), don't know if it matters.
    The differences in details do matter actually. I've only just managed to digitally enhance the seal portion slightly, and the following is the result. I hope it helps.

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  24. #23  
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    The posistion 8 character looks like crossed cannons to me
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