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Thread: Systems to inform future civilizations over expected disasters

  1. #1 Systems to inform future civilizations over expected disasters 
    Universe Supervisor dapifo's Avatar
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    I would like to ask a question to the participants of this thread:

    I will follow the Maya example: Suppose that over the next five years we find that there is a really important astronomical change that have a significant impact on humanity (largely destroying our civiización), that really shows that there are cycles of 5,200 years, as said Mayas.

    How would we do to inform our descendants of this change in the future and in 5200 years?

    What would our descendants think about , after 5,000 years, the information that we have designed to warn them?

    My oppinion is that the only ways to do it is by ...metaphors and they pass it on via one oral ... or printing it on he stones...I cannot see any other else.


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    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    I would like to ask a question to the participants of this thread:

    I will follow the Maya example: Suppose that over the next five years we find that there is a really important astronomical change that have a significant impact on humanity (largely destroying our civiización), that really shows that there are cycles of 5,200 years, as said Mayas.

    How would we do to inform our descendants of this change in the future and in 5200 years?

    What would our descendants think about , after 5,000 years, the information that we have designed to warn them?

    My oppinion is that the only ways to do it is by ...metaphors and they pass it on via one oral ... or printing it on he stones...I cannot see any other else.
    I am stupider for having read that post. In order to wrap my mind around the absolute absurdity of it, I needed to lower my standards to ridiculous depths.

    When I read the bit about, "cycles of 5,200 years, as said Mayas," my first impulse was to point out that the Mayans never said that. At all.
    But as I read further, I saw that you were claiming that for absurd and unknown reasons, they had to encode their prediction in some far-fetched and obscure methodology. You claim it as the only way. You claim you can see no other way.

    Let's raise my standards: I have an idea. One full of wit and insight...

    Maybe they would write it down, in full detail and clearly, including the calculations and observations. I dunno- but to me, some Earth damning, doom impending, all life being threatened event demands a bit of clarity, you know? Not weird, vague and obscure hints and suggestions cleverly hidden in calendar dates. I could be wrong. Maybe I'm just throw'd off.

    Why you claim that it must be some obscure oral and written tradition which is vague and actually says nothing like what you claim it does is utterly and totally beyond me. I cannot fathom why you would consider such a thing. It eludes me as to what catastrophic mental break downs led your intellect into such dismal failure.


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    Universe Supervisor dapifo's Avatar
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    Hy ... thanks for spending your precious time in getting in this stupid and low level thread...bud ... please, give if you are nere give some clever answers..or oppinions.

    How will you detail how "they would write it down, in full detail and clearly, including the calculations and observations" ?

    In a paper, CD, ....?
    "If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking". George S. Patton
    "Science does not know its debt to imagination". Ralph Waldo Emerson

    "Why settle with the known models and patterns (but not underlying laws) of Our Universe , if we might understand them better if we could puzzle out them from outside its limits?"
    (The common sense)
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    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    How will you detail how "they would write it down, in full detail and clearly, including the calculations and observations" ?

    In a paper, CD, ....?
    You, yourself, pointed out that they had inscribed messages on stone- which is much more durable and lasting anyway. That's what they inscribed the calenders on. What makes you think that the only way they could 'warn' future generations of some impending disaster is to leave vague and obscure clues?
    Especially considering that there is no sign that they did anything of the kind. They simply made a calender.
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    WYSIWYG Moderator marnixR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    I will follow the Maya example: Suppose that over the next five years we find that there is a really important astronomical change that have a significant impact on humanity (largely destroying our civiización), that really shows that there are cycles of 5,200 years, as said Mayas.
    not sure if understand - surely the Maya did not warn about impending doom ?
    all they had was a calendar that came to an end, all the other scaremongering was a recent invention

    besides, how would we know about something that definitely would cause disaster in 5000 years time ? we just don't have that knowledge, and i very much doubt whether the Maya had either
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
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    Universe Supervisor dapifo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    How will you detail how "they would write it down, in full detail and clearly, including the calculations and observations" ?

    In a paper, CD, ....?
    You, yourself, pointed out that they had inscribed messages on stone- which is much more durable and lasting anyway. That's what they inscribed the calenders on. What makes you think that the only way they could 'warn' future generations of some impending disaster is to leave vague and obscure clues?
    Especially considering that there is no sign that they did anything of the kind. They simply made a calender.
    I never talk about Mayas..you do it !!!

    Forget mayas...My question is how do you will do it !!!... You didn´t say any thing ...
    "If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking". George S. Patton
    "Science does not know its debt to imagination". Ralph Waldo Emerson

    "Why settle with the known models and patterns (but not underlying laws) of Our Universe , if we might understand them better if we could puzzle out them from outside its limits?"
    (The common sense)
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    Universe Supervisor dapifo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marnixR View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    I will follow the Maya example: Suppose that over the next five years we find that there is a really important astronomical change that have a significant impact on humanity (largely destroying our civiización), that really shows that there are cycles of 5,200 years, as said Mayas.
    not sure if understand - surely the Maya did not warn about impending doom ?
    all they had was a calendar that came to an end, all the other scaremongering was a recent invention

    besides, how would we know about something that definitely would cause disaster in 5000 years time ? we just don't have that knowledge, and i very much doubt whether the Maya had either
    As I told before..I never talk about mayas...I talk about 5200 years...but could be 10.000.... How do you will do it?

    Supose that you have a calendar that say it ..that you don´t know who do it... and it is confirmed...most of humans dead...and civilization fell.. you are only 20 persons to survive and decide to design a methode to transmit this info to your descendents...10.000 years later...How to do it in a reliable way....?
    "If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking". George S. Patton
    "Science does not know its debt to imagination". Ralph Waldo Emerson

    "Why settle with the known models and patterns (but not underlying laws) of Our Universe , if we might understand them better if we could puzzle out them from outside its limits?"
    (The common sense)
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    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    As I told before..I never talk about mayas...I talk about 5200 years...but could be 10.000.... How do you will do it?
    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    I never talk about Mayas..you do it !!!
    Warning to readers---The following quote from Dapifo does not actually exist:
    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    I will follow the Maya example: (snip)that really shows that there are cycles of 5,200 years, as said Mayas.
    It is a figment of your diseased imagination.
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  10. #9  
    Universe Supervisor dapifo's Avatar
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    Ok..just as an example...but you can evoid it ...just think for your self...how will you do it !!!
    "If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking". George S. Patton
    "Science does not know its debt to imagination". Ralph Waldo Emerson

    "Why settle with the known models and patterns (but not underlying laws) of Our Universe , if we might understand them better if we could puzzle out them from outside its limits?"
    (The common sense)
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  11. #10  
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    5kyrs into the future
    some poor archaeologist will be puzzling over the lack of a 13th floor in many highrise buildings
    and drawing absurd assumptions as to the varying tribal natures of the highrise people,
    and even crazier assumptions as to their beliefs
    ......................
    If we could time travel,
    and went back in time
    and told the people then what we "know" about their culture, and beliefs
    they would think us comedians
    ....................
    I can see them now
    drinking their beer and wine, while listening to us expound upon our "knowledge" of them and their culture
    and rolling about on the groung laughing uproariously,
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    I have a great idea! there was once a discussion about how to mark a dangerous place (ie: place where we store radioactive waste) for thousand of years to future civilization. One of the suggestion was to use icons and drawing that is designed perfectly to be able to be understood by many culture and even after rebirth of new civilization.

    If drawing is the correct way to do it, then you must draw it. But how do you draw it? how do you draw complex meaning on a rock?

    ---
    An example of message system to keep people away from a dangerous storage site: WIPP Exhibit: Message to 12,000 A.D.
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    Quote Originally Posted by msafwan View Post
    I have a great idea! there was once a discussion about how to mark a dangerous place (ie: place where we store radioactive waste) for thousand of years to future civilization. One of the suggestion was to use icons and drawing that is designed perfectly to be able to be understood by many culture and even after rebirth of new civilization.

    If drawing is the correct way to do it, then you must draw it. But how do you draw it? how do you draw complex meaning on a rock?

    ---
    An example of message system to keep people away from a dangerous storage site: WIPP Exhibit: Message to 12,000 A.D.
    That is very good ... it could be another application for the future...how to do it???

    My opinion is that the only ways to do it is by ...metaphors and they pass it on via one oral ... or printing it on he stones...I cannot see any other else.

    But in your case is more simple...because it is important to print a mesage (in a big stone) ..that only has to be understood in the case that you find it !!!...if you don´t find it...it will be not a problem...

    But if you want to alert about somthing it has to be found and understood near this time !!!... how to do it?...which people and civilization will be there?

    I thing that the earth precession axis....would be a good (and possible the unic) system to specify aa start time...and an end time. (!!??)
    "If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking". George S. Patton
    "Science does not know its debt to imagination". Ralph Waldo Emerson

    "Why settle with the known models and patterns (but not underlying laws) of Our Universe , if we might understand them better if we could puzzle out them from outside its limits?"
    (The common sense)
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    In 5,000 years langage and all life may have changed to the point of extinction due to humans burning off their resources and your idea isn't so far fetched as a rule.... We as a civilazation are doomed by our own hands if not by any other sources.... Anyways i'd like suggest pictures and place them between 2 one inch thick peices of lexan sealed and then frame them with stainless steel so the layers don't part.... Place then in many places like the pyramids, mammoth cave and so fourth....
    (warthog) an ugly little animal in Africa that is hunted, killed and eaten by lions.

    Sorry i'm no scientist so don't expect me to use those terms which scientist use
    to explain things.... I am only an observer of things....

    Every dream i've dreamed isn't the life I live in....
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    5kyrs into the future
    some poor archaeologist will be puzzling over the lack of a 13th floor in many highrise buildings
    and drawing absurd assumptions as to the varying tribal natures of the highrise people,
    and even crazier assumptions as to their beliefs
    ......................
    If we could time travel,
    and went back in time
    and told the people then what we "know" about their culture, and beliefs
    they would think us comedians
    ....................
    I can see them now
    drinking their beer and wine, while listening to us expound upon our "knowledge" of them and their culture
    and rolling about on the groung laughing uproariously,
    You state all of this as fact, yet it reminds me of a plot from a children's book I read back in the eighties.

    The only amusing bit is that the "assumptions" you claim made are backed by evidence and you have zero cause to claim that if we could travel back in time, they would laugh hysterically. That's an assumption on your part, based perhaps on some desire to lash out against anthropology.
    Maybe anthropology isn't spiritual enough for you.
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    just one of my degrees dadio
    read your James George Frazer
    which was oftimes wrong about current and recent anthropology
    and the folly of extrapolating backward from current mores
    becomes ever more obvious

    what was thought to be known has oftimes proven to be wrong

    but then again
    I could be wrong
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    just one of my degrees dadio
    read your James George Frazer
    which was oftimes wrong about current and recent anthropology
    and the folly of extrapolating backward from current mores
    becomes ever more obvious

    what was thought to be known has oftimes proven to be wrong

    but then again
    I could be wrong
    This can be quite true- but a big issue with what you said wasn't about what's found to have been in error and what's probably accurate. It's in that you made it seem as though Anthropologists make these wild and unfounded speculations and assumptions on the grand scale.
    This is not an accurate picture you paint. In fact, they are very cautious about speculating about past cultures and rely on hard evidence.
    Publicists do that at times. Journalists do it, too. Their angle is sensationalism. But be careful who you attribute what to.
    For example, conspiracy theorists do it all the time present day- it doesn't mean that the scientists do what conspiracy theorists do.
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    At the heart of dapifo's question are these facts. Many native English speakers have difficulty following Shakespeare. Most native English speakers are unable to understand Chaucer. Only a smattering of people can read Beowulf. And that's 1200 years. Add another 4,000 and tell me how well we shall comprehend?
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    At the heart of dapifo's question are these facts. Many native English speakers have difficulty following Shakespeare. Most native English speakers are unable to understand Chaucer. Only a smattering of people can read Beowulf. And that's 1200 years. Add another 4,000 and tell me how well we shall comprehend?
    On the other hand, there are texts older than 5,000 years which we can read. In great detail. So, in principle, there is nothing to stop us leaving detailed and accurate information.

    People are already thinking about ways of preserving information for millennia. Take a look at the Long Now project, for example: Front Page - The Long Now (most relevant to this thread, perhaps, are the Rosetta Project and the Long Server).
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
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    Forum Radioactive Isotope cosmictraveler's Avatar
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    Wouldn't it be better to "fix" whatever problem we find out about today or in the near future? That way those humans in the future won't need to worry about something happening because we already have fixed it before it did happen.
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    Some predictable problems may not be fixable with extant or attainable technology.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    Wouldn't it be better to "fix" whatever problem we find out about today or in the near future? That way those humans in the future won't need to worry about something happening because we already have fixed it before it did happen.
    And if there are things that can not be avoided? ... like astronomical effects, ...
    "If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking". George S. Patton
    "Science does not know its debt to imagination". Ralph Waldo Emerson

    "Why settle with the known models and patterns (but not underlying laws) of Our Universe , if we might understand them better if we could puzzle out them from outside its limits?"
    (The common sense)
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    Universe Supervisor dapifo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    At the heart of dapifo's question are these facts. Many native English speakers have difficulty following Shakespeare. Most native English speakers are unable to understand Chaucer. Only a smattering of people can read Beowulf. And that's 1200 years. Add another 4,000 and tell me how well we shall comprehend?
    On the other hand, there are texts older than 5,000 years which we can read. In great detail. So, in principle, there is nothing to stop us leaving detailed and accurate information.

    People are already thinking about ways of preserving information for millennia. Take a look at the Long Now project, for example: Front Page - The Long Now (most relevant to this thread, perhaps, are the Rosetta Project and the Long Server).

    Ok..this project is very interenting...and I also read about other project (I don´t know if it is the same?) about a stone book licbrary where they are recording in stone all the information they can, and hiding it in a hidden place in USA, ... but the problem would be how to indicate where our ancestors may encounter it in the future .. Possibly doing a sphinx and pyramid on top?

    We can think of 5,000 years or more: 10,000, 100,000, ....
    "If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking". George S. Patton
    "Science does not know its debt to imagination". Ralph Waldo Emerson

    "Why settle with the known models and patterns (but not underlying laws) of Our Universe , if we might understand them better if we could puzzle out them from outside its limits?"
    (The common sense)
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    Wouldn't it be better to "fix" whatever problem we find out about today or in the near future? That way those humans in the future won't need to worry about something happening because we already have fixed it before it did happen.
    This is how I see it. It's not as though we'd need to leave some text for future generations to find.

    For one thing, whatever we discover that could be a threat- it's a safe bet that another thousand years of scientific development would yield a lot more data on that threat than any text we leave behind would.

    In addition to this, it's perfectly reasonable that society would begin efforts to prevent, evade, minimize etc the threat and a future historian or such would have great difficulty avoiding the extensive material on the subject.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    Wouldn't it be better to "fix" whatever problem we find out about today or in the near future? That way those humans in the future won't need to worry about something happening because we already have fixed it before it did happen.
    This is how I see it. It's not as though we'd need to leave some text for future generations to find.

    For one thing, whatever we discover that could be a threat- it's a safe bet that another thousand years of scientific development would yield a lot more data on that threat than any text we leave behind would.

    In addition to this, it's perfectly reasonable that society would begin efforts to prevent, evade, minimize etc the threat and a future historian or such would have great difficulty avoiding the extensive material on the subject.
    How humans could solve that an asteroid hits the Earth or a solar explosion burn us all?

    If any of these things happen on a periodic basis due to definite physical processes (eg every 20,000 years), how could we avoid them if we are not advising our descendants? ... Given that, after these disasters, current civilization and technology would cease to exist, and would return to the stone or iron ages .
    "If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking". George S. Patton
    "Science does not know its debt to imagination". Ralph Waldo Emerson

    "Why settle with the known models and patterns (but not underlying laws) of Our Universe , if we might understand them better if we could puzzle out them from outside its limits?"
    (The common sense)
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    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    How humans could solve that an asteroid hits the Earth
    There are already realistic plans in place for such an eventuality.

    or a solar explosion burn us all?
    Is that a plausible scenario?

    If any of these things happen on a periodic basis due to definite physical processes (eg every 20,000 years), how could we avoid them if we are not advising our descendants? ... Given that, after these disasters, current civilization and technology would cease to exist, and would return to the stone or iron ages .
    There are an awful lot of "what ifs" in this argument. IF there is such a destructive event and IF it occurs regularly and IF there is time for civilization/technology to recover to the point where it is worth informing people, then why not leave detailed information about what we know (so they can add it to what they have learnt themselves).

    What is the point of leaving a message for a future advanced technological civilization (like ours) that just says: "Be careful: Mysterious Bad Thing happen one day!!!!1!"

    It would be much more useful to leave a detailed description of the cause, the timing, the preventative/protective measures that worked and didn't work last time, etc.

    Also, if there had been such regularly, globally destructive events, we would know about them from the evidence left behind.
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    It depends on how precognitive these people are supposed to have been. Is the foretold catastrophe a "prophecy" by a "seer"? Or is it based on some astronomical observation, like seeing a celestial object come and go?

    If it's the second possibility, then clearly that celestial object has not been observed yet. Unless it's something that can't be seen coming, like a distant pulsar randomly directing all of its particles our way (so we wouldn't see them coming until they hit us), then I think it's safe to say the object didn't arrive.

    If it's the first possibility, then the prophecy could all be religious hokum.

    On the other hand, for the sake of the OP on this thread: If psychic foresight is possible, and a psychic really did forsee what would happen, then he/she probably also foresaw the Spanish Conquerors amassing and burning pretty much all the writings of the Maya culture (..... which makes it odd that they didn't set the apocalypse to coincide with the arrival of the Spanish...)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    What is the point of leaving a message for a future advanced technological civilization (like ours) that just says: "Be careful: Mysterious Bad Thing happen one day!!!!1!"

    It would be much more useful to leave a detailed description of the cause, the timing, the preventative/protective measures that worked and didn't work last time, etc.

    Also, if there had been such regularly, globally destructive events, we would know about them from the evidence left behind.

    OK...How and where do you do it?
    "If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking". George S. Patton
    "Science does not know its debt to imagination". Ralph Waldo Emerson

    "Why settle with the known models and patterns (but not underlying laws) of Our Universe , if we might understand them better if we could puzzle out them from outside its limits?"
    (The common sense)
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    Quote Originally Posted by msafwan View Post
    I have a great idea! there was once a discussion about how to mark a dangerous place (ie: place where we store radioactive waste) for thousand of years to future civilization. One of the suggestion was to use icons and drawing that is designed perfectly to be able to be understood by many culture and even after rebirth of new civilization.

    If drawing is the correct way to do it, then you must draw it. But how do you draw it? how do you draw complex meaning on a rock?

    ---
    An example of message system to keep people away from a dangerous storage site: WIPP Exhibit: Message to 12,000 A.D.
    One solution. Don't put it all in one place. Create several such sites, and mark them identically. They will learn from experiece, and the damage will be reduced.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    OK...How and where do you do it?
    Honestly, I'd use redundant clay tablets. Seriously, it can withstand time.
    I'd then go about it the same way we'd try to communicate with alien beings: I'd start with a code, such as the formula for hydrogen, prime numbers, etc., in order to establish a meaningful language that can easily be deciphered, just in case linguistics had changed so drastically in five thousand years, etc.
    This is to assure that even if in two thousand years, an unforeseen catastrophe reduces civilization to bare survivors, the odds of a rebuilt advanced society being smart enough, even if a rebuilt society had a totally new language structure, to read the messages.
    I say "redundant" and "messages" because I would make thousands of copies planted in any key area of interest around the world, in a sealed vault. Each vault would contain many duplicate copies of the clay tablets.
    Each vault would be waterproofed and sealed. Each vault would contain the locations of all other vaults, in duplicate in different triple sealed boxes, in case natural disasters (Flooding, earthquake, etc.) did irreparable damage to the contents of the vault, alerting whomever finds it that they can find good copies elsewhere.

    The option provides good affordability, as well as cooperation with other nations, it can even allow public involvement, such as modern literature also being inscribed and placed in the vaults, as a sort of time capsule.
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    What if:
    The people who designed and built the stone structures at Göbekli Tepe
    were trying to tell us of a catastrophy ---the (for them) recent 30+ meter rise in sea levels which inundated their river estuary valleys
    and
    we just can't see what they were trying to tell us
    and instead we see
    "The World's First Temple"
    from archaeology, Volume 61 Number 6, November/December 2008

    "A temple (from the Latin word templum) is a structure reserved for religious or spiritual activities, such as prayer and sacrifice, or analogous rites. "

    What if
    it wasn't a temple / they weren't temples at all?
    what if prejudice is the nature of our species
    and future generations
    as (perhaps) are we, are blinded to the truth in favor of our prejudices?

    would it be folly to try and leave any concise message for some future civilization
    to warn them of our disasters and mistakes?

    is there any symbolism that speaks, or could speak, directly to an underlying species wide understanding?
    Last edited by sculptor; January 10th, 2013 at 07:58 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    OK...How and where do you do it?
    Pretty much as Neverfly said. Clay tablets already provide the oldest texts we have (in a language that has been dead for thousands of years). Note that they were not created with the intention of being read in the future. If this was the intention then, as Neverfly says, you can provide a key to allow future interpretation. You could also include a grammar, glossaries, pictures, etc.

    I would add further redundancy/diversity by using a variety of materials (ancient and modern) as well. Also use several different writing systems and several languages from each major family (Semitic, Indo-European, Siniic, etc) - on the assumption that some descendant of these might still be spoken.

    Or you could leave a single copy of a metaphorical fairy tale, written in a forgotten language on perishable material, in the hope that it might be discovered and someone might correctly guess what you meant by it.
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    Ok not going to be the most realistic idea but couldn’t we just etch, in big fonts, all the necessary data onto the face of the moon? Preservation won’t be as big a problem because of less erosion up there and would be hard to miss.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapples View Post
    Ok not going to be the most realistic idea but couldn’t we just etch, in big fonts, all the necessary data onto the face of the moon? Preservation won’t be as big a problem because of less erosion up there and would be hard to miss.
    I think you might win the "thinking outside the box" award for that one!
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    has lost interest seagypsy's Avatar
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    I say screw'em, what have future people ever done for us?
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    Speaking badly about people after they are gone and jumping on the bash the band wagon must do very well for a low self-esteem.
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    If you had a message you wanted to pass down time accurately you should use "shot gun technique" write it in as many mediums as possible , in as many places as possible in as many languages as possible, illustrate it in as many ways as possible. As a variant of this put hints in popular stories, refferences in other mediums that will be repeated for there own sake
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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapples View Post
    Ok not going to be the most realistic idea but couldn’t we just etch, in big fonts, all the necessary data onto the face of the moon? Preservation won’t be as big a problem because of less erosion up there and would be hard to miss.
    in a way, we've already done just that, but landing on the moon and leaving all sorts of stuff there
    anyone with a good enough telescope should be able to spot it
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
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    Quote Originally Posted by marnixR View Post
    in a way, we've already done just that, but landing on the moon and leaving all sorts of stuff there
    anyone with a good enough telescope should be able to spot it
    A good telescope in the far future? Because we have some amazing scopes, space scopes now and we still cannot get that kind of detail.
    It would require a reflective mirror of immense size in order to spot the base of the Lunar Lander or the Rover. As it is, even if we used Hubble or Spitzer to peer at those coordinates, the resolution is not fine enough to see those tiny details.
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    New photographs show traces man left on the Moon - Telegraph

    If a small camera on the Lunar Orbiter can do this, then I see no reason a large Earth based telescope could not do something similar. I stand ready to be shown to be mistaken.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    New photographs show traces man left on the Moon - Telegraph

    If a small camera on the Lunar Orbiter can do this, then I see no reason a large Earth based telescope could not do something similar. I stand ready to be shown to be mistaken.
    Yes, but the lunar orbiter was much, much, much closer.
    I'm certain you're mistaken on this one John... but that certainty is based on the math of sighting, not on some kind of research on what we can't see. I would point out that no Earth based or Earth orbit based telescopes have put forth such imagery to shut up Bart Sibrel.
    But I stand to be corrected as well...
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    has lost interest seagypsy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    New photographs show traces man left on the Moon - Telegraph

    If a small camera on the Lunar Orbiter can do this, then I see no reason a large Earth based telescope could not do something similar. I stand ready to be shown to be mistaken.
    Yes, but the lunar orbiter was much, much, much closer.
    I'm certain you're mistaken on this one John... but that certainty is based on the math of sighting, not on some kind of research on what we can't see. I would point out that no Earth based or Earth orbit based telescopes have put forth such imagery to shut up Bart Sibrel.
    But I stand to be corrected as well...
    Why does everyone stand to be corrected? Wouldn't it be safer to sit down before being corrected? Sometimes correction can be traumatizing. What if you faint?
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    Glass of water for Mr. Galt!
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    I would start a new religion with a bible predicting the end of the world. Once the religion is established it will self-perpetuate through prayer and ritual.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Write4U View Post
    I would start a new religion with a bible predicting the end of the world. Once the religion is established it will self-perpetuate through prayer and ritual.
    I know you are probably joking but as this is also dapifo's preferred route ...

    The trouble is the message would get lost over millennia. And then there would be schisms with one group saying that the Book was not meant literally. And others saying it was a spiritual rather than a physical end. And then some people would start other religions, etc.
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
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    Ok ...after reading all your ideas...I´ll resum in:

    - To write in different SMALL thechniques (languages, simbols,...)...and to keep them in several places...and with clear marks that could be seen after thousent of years....
    - To write in different LARGE thechniques... like pyramides, stonehedges,...
    - By oral transmiting through simbolic thechniques.... and through the generatiosns.

    There are no any else !!!!!!
    "If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking". George S. Patton
    "Science does not know its debt to imagination". Ralph Waldo Emerson

    "Why settle with the known models and patterns (but not underlying laws) of Our Universe , if we might understand them better if we could puzzle out them from outside its limits?"
    (The common sense)
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    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    I would like to ask a question to the participants of this thread:

    I will follow the Maya example: Suppose that over the next five years we find that there is a really important astronomical change that have a significant impact on humanity (largely destroying our civiización), that really shows that there are cycles of 5,200 years, as said Mayas.

    How would we do to inform our descendants of this change in the future and in 5200 years?

    What would our descendants think about , after 5,000 years, the information that we have designed to warn them?

    My oppinion is that the only ways to do it is by ...metaphors and they pass it on via one oral ... or printing it on he stones...I cannot see any other else.
    You appear to be assuming that any future civilisation is going to dumber than us - i.e. that they won't be able to detect this threat by themselves.
    Alternatively, IF they can't then what makes you think there's any point in warning them? If they can't find out for themselves then they're also going to be unlikely to be able to do anything about it.

    As for "passing it on by metaphors" what about leaving clear mathematical guidance?
    Metaphors are too subject to interpretation - maths isn't.

    As for actually "passing it on" how about setting up a foundation whose sole job it is to ensure that the data remains readable (assuming there's some things that can't be expressed mathematically) in the current language?

    E.g. the previous example of Chaucer and Shakespeare - if someone had "re-written" them each time the language shifted (oh wait, you CAN get copies of those works in contemporary language) then there'd be zero problem.
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    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    stonehedges,...
    You mean a wall?
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  48. #47  
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    I realise that this is probably a bit off-topic, but...

    I am at a loss as to what possible cataclysmic event could be predicted 5000 years ago...and not also be predicted 4000 years ago or 3000, 2000, 1000 or today.
    The only examples I see are of magical events destroying the planet.
    If there was a massive asteroid heading our way, then we would be able to see it today - and warnings from 5000 years ago would be unnecessary.

    e.g.
    The way that the Mayans could convey to us the future destruction of the earth by an asteroid is by simply waiting for us to look up.
    The way that the Mayans could convey to us the future destruction of the earth by Ah Chuy Kak is not necessary as he doesn't exist.

    Is there anything that we, today, can predict for the year 7013?
    And, whatever it is, wouldn't the people alive in 7013 be in a better position to judge the likelihood of it happening?

    It definitely seems to me that this thread is like a debate about whether dragons can talk.
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    Forum Professor river_rat's Avatar
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    What I picture here is that we sink all of our radioactive waste product into a vault in a mountain - that is a cataclysmic event (i.e. opening the vault) that we can predict now that future archaeologists may not be able to predict when they find the ruins of the structure around the vault in 5000 years time.
    As is often the case with technical subjects we are presented with an unfortunate choice: an explanation that is accurate but incomprehensible, or comprehensible but wrong.
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  50. #49  
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    It definitely seems to me that this thread is like a debate about whether dragons can talk.
    What? You think they can't?
    Ban the woo-woo!
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    Quote Originally Posted by river_rat View Post
    What I picture here is that we sink all of our radioactive waste product into a vault in a mountain - that is a cataclysmic event (i.e. opening the vault) that we can predict now that future archaeologists may not be able to predict when they find the ruins of the structure around the vault in 5000 years time.
    I like your thinking!
    We can predict the end of the world by planting a massive time-bomb.
    Last edited by RedPanda; January 22nd, 2013 at 10:05 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    You appear to be assuming that any future civilisation is going to dumber than us - i.e. that they won't be able to detect this threat by themselves.Alternatively, IF they can't then what makes you think there's any point in warning them? If they can't find out for themselves then they're also going to be unlikely to be able to do anything about it.
    That is true...but we have to try...we don´t know what will happen in the future... and how intelligents and skilled will be our descendents after 10.000 years

    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    As for "passing it on by metaphors" what about leaving clear mathematical guidance?
    Metaphors are too subject to interpretation - maths isn't.
    OK...with Maths...How do you do it?... and where you keep the (writed or drawn?) info?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    As for actually "passing it on" how about setting up a foundation whose sole job it is to ensure that the data remains readable (assuming there's some things that can't be expressed mathematically) in the current language?
    I don´t see it very easy for 10.000 years....
    "If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking". George S. Patton
    "Science does not know its debt to imagination". Ralph Waldo Emerson

    "Why settle with the known models and patterns (but not underlying laws) of Our Universe , if we might understand them better if we could puzzle out them from outside its limits?"
    (The common sense)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    stonehedges,...
    You mean a wall?
    yes...for example...
    "If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking". George S. Patton
    "Science does not know its debt to imagination". Ralph Waldo Emerson

    "Why settle with the known models and patterns (but not underlying laws) of Our Universe , if we might understand them better if we could puzzle out them from outside its limits?"
    (The common sense)
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    One thing that's kind of bothering me is, even if the Inca were trying to tell us something about the end of the world, all that tells us is that they sincerely believed it. It doesn't mean it was true.

    If they did know something, then how did they know? A lot of ancient cultures thought they "knew" stuff. It's called religion. Not many early religions have been shown to be accurate or are even widely believed still.


    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    New photographs show traces man left on the Moon - Telegraph

    If a small camera on the Lunar Orbiter can do this, then I see no reason a large Earth based telescope could not do something similar. I stand ready to be shown to be mistaken.
    It depends how far away the telescope is. From the surface of Earth, the Moon is 384,400 km away. I imagine the lunar orbiter was much closer than that when it took its pictures.

    For reference, the Earth is only 12,742 km thick.

    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    OK...with Maths...How do you do it?... and where you keep the (writed or drawn?) info?

    I don´t see it very easy for 10.000 years....
    Why are you not satisfied with all the practical suggestions provided so far?

    It seems that, as usual, you have your own idea which you cling on to despite any information you are given.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    OK...with Maths...How do you do it?... and where you keep the (writed or drawn?) info?

    I don´t see it very easy for 10.000 years....
    Why are you not satisfied with all the practical suggestions provided so far?

    It seems that, as usual, you have your own idea which you cling on to despite any information you are given.
    And as always, you dedicate yourself to destroy without providing any idea (new or not)...
    "If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking". George S. Patton
    "Science does not know its debt to imagination". Ralph Waldo Emerson

    "Why settle with the known models and patterns (but not underlying laws) of Our Universe , if we might understand them better if we could puzzle out them from outside its limits?"
    (The common sense)
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    There is far too much telling, and far too little questioning. Far too much interpreting and far too little listening.

    Upon my reading the first post I thought it a reasonable question, and had no reason to entertain any notion of fact about Maya's or whatever. Why can't a poster make a brief comment clarifying their understanding of another posters question (or the relevance of an example) without initially attacking the poster's intelligence or qualification? If a young child asked you this question would you tell them how stupid you must be in order to entertain their question? Honestly people. This is getting absurd. I'm amazed anyone has the gall to post new threads in this forum with the types of responses they can expect to receive.

    Let Sculptor set an example for you all.
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    Going back to his post...
    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    "A temple (from the Latin word templum) is a structure reserved for religious or spiritual activities, such as prayer and sacrifice, or analogous rites. "What ifit wasn't a temple / they weren't temples at all?what if prejudice is the nature of our speciesand future generationsas (perhaps) are we, are blinded to the truth in favor of our prejudices?would it be folly to try and leave any concise message for some future civilizationto warn them of our disasters and mistakes?is there any symbolism that speaks, or could speak, directly to an underlying species wide understanding?
    We are a nation founded by religious zealots (the Americans here anyway). You think maybe we just want to see ourselves in history? Maybe it makes it easier for us to relate to if we tell the story in a way where we are the protagonists (or someone ver much like us)?Lots of end timers are looking for an apocalypse accompanied by a rapture and some nifty miracles. Maybe we hope we aren't the only ones who saw such a turbulent and/or dismal future ahead of ourselves?

    The irony is we only need to look around at many other contemporary cultures that still exist and we can plainly see that our oun outlook isn't the only one.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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    Hello, I only just noticed this thread - somewhat late. It may have lapsed?
    Anyway for what its worth a prior civilization did leave a record for us carved in stone - according to Josephus [Antiquities of the Jews] the forefathers of Abraham carved their knowledge on pillars of stone so it would be preserved. It survived and we know it as the Pyramid texts carved inside the pyramids of Saqqara in Egypt - but, here's the crunch - regarded as unfathomable 'religious' hocus pocus. All the details of that are in a recent book called 'Before The Delusion by Wm Gleeson which is well worth a look if you are interested in that sort of thing. Regards MC
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Collins View Post
    Hello, I only just noticed this thread - somewhat late. It may have lapsed?
    Anyway for what its worth a prior civilization did leave a record for us carved in stone - according to Josephus [Antiquities of the Jews] the forefathers of Abraham carved their knowledge on pillars of stone so it would be preserved. It survived and we know it as the Pyramid texts carved inside the pyramids of Saqqara in Egypt - but, here's the crunch - regarded as unfathomable 'religious' hocus pocus. All the details of that are in a recent book called 'Before The Delusion by Wm Gleeson which is well worth a look if you are interested in that sort of thing. Regards MC
    Um, yes.
    A novel.
    That's more than likely just as "scholarly" as Dan Brown's work.
    In other words, complete nonsense.
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    Well unfortunately I don't have the ability to know complete nonsense before even reading it. So I looked up Josephus and he does say Abrahams forefathers knew the secrets of the stars and carved them on pillars of stone etc.
    Gleeson's book does look Dan Brownish but it contains some very intriguing research - all documented so you can decide for yourself if the sources are nonsense. MC
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    Interesting comments. I'm a little wary of selective interpretations - that Josephus was unreliable, in parts, maybe. In any case he didn't say - in any detail - exactly what the forebears carved in stone. So what political mileage could he gain from that?
    It's somewhat similar to Bertrand Russell labelling Plato as the greatest of the Greek philosophers - but Timaeus was a fraud. How could he reach that selective opinion?
    Anyway perhaps I have made too much of Josephus in isolation. There are other supportive examples that the ancients did attempt to leave records - which we have lost, ignored or misunderstood. MC
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Collins View Post
    Anyway perhaps I have made too much of Josephus in isolation. There are other supportive examples that the ancients did attempt to leave records - which we have lost, ignored or misunderstood. MC
    Which is a point- if we did leave a record- what might a long distant civilization do with it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Collins View Post
    Gleeson's book does look Dan Brownish but it contains some very intriguing research
    It also contains a great deal of falsehood, speculation posed as fact and sheer crap.

    all documented so you can decide for yourself if the sources are nonsense. MC
    Documented nonsense is still nonsense. He appears to have spent far too much time mining the outer reaches of internet woo and taking it as fact.

    That, and an apparently unshakeable faith in his own capabilities as a translator (as opposed to those who have spent their lives learning the language) coupled with some sort of agenda, makes him soo right, doesn't it?
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    Well I'm just an interested amateur - but the comments about 'sheer crap' aren't very scholarly either. One must have high admiration for those with expert knowledge of exotic languages, but their orthodox interpretations do present gaps and inconsistencies that leave room for other views. Or at least sensible debate of other views, without animus. MC
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Collins View Post
    but the comments about 'sheer crap' aren't very scholarly either
    Agreed. I was merely matching the "scolarship" displayed in his contentions.

    Or at least sensible debate of other views, without animus. MC
    How can one have a "sensible debate" about unmitigated nonsense passed off as fact?
    The man's "work" is a travesty of science and history.
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    I could understand someone leaving a record of history, but why would anyone want to leave behind the equation 2 + 2 = 4 for future generations? Don't we already know this today?

    To my knowledge no drawing, scribble, or artifact of something "still unknown", left behind to be figured out by future generations, has ever been found.

    What would be gained to leave a record of E = Mc^2 carved in stone for future generations?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Write4U View Post
    I could understand someone leaving a record of history, but why would anyone want to leave behind the equation 2 + 2 = 4 for future generations? Don't we already know this today?

    To my knowledge no drawing, scribble, or artifact of something "still unknown", left behind to be figured out by future generations, has ever been found.

    What would be gained to leave a record of E = Mc^2 carved in stone for future generations?
    None of what you said in this post makes any sense to me. We advance because we stand on the knowledge our ancestors or precursors found. They left that recorded for us, which we use as a base to find more knowledge.
    We record that and others come after us to build on top of that.

    What on Earth are you going on about suggesting that it's pointless to leave knowledge recorded? This thread stayed quiet since you posted that. It took me several days to come back to it, even. I think you left everyone who read that dumbfounded as to what irrational tangent you went wandering off on, there.

    And no record of anything still unknown has ever been found? What the hell, seriously?!
    Most of recorded anything includes mysteries and unknown factors.
    Hell, research anything, from the Human Brain, to Black Holes, to BBT to atmospheric phenomena. Most every recorded subject ever always has the underlying premise that we still have much to learn, much to discover, much to figure out.
    You use the example of Relativity. Yet, Relativity is recorded so that future generations can learn it so they can know it so that they don't have to figure it out all over again, but rather, try to work with that knowledge to figure out how gravity and macroscopic facets of the Universe works with microscopic facets of the Universe.
    Write4u, you often make good posts.

    This was not one of them.

    This must be your worst post, ever.

    Whatever was going on in your mind when you typed out that nonsense, I strongly recommend that you recognize what it was and, in the future, when you get that way again, refrain from posting and go outside for some fresh air.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Write4U View Post
    I could understand someone leaving a record of history, but why would anyone want to leave behind the equation 2 + 2 = 4 for future generations? Don't we already know this today?

    To my knowledge no drawing, scribble, or artifact of something "still unknown", left behind to be figured out by future generations, has ever been found. What can be gained to leave a record of E = Mc^2 carved in stone for future generations, unless you foresee a future where man has to start all over again?
    None of what you said in this post makes any sense to me. We advance because we stand on the knowledge our ancestors or precursors found. They left that recorded for us, which we use as a base to find more knowledge. We record that and others come after us to build on top of that.
    I agree in principle with that, but then ask yourself, is the bible a scientific document on which new technologies can be founded?

    OTOH, I will readily admit to Nature and Science leaving artifacts behind which have enduring value, even for future generations. Relativity did not come into existence with Einstein, it came into existence during the BB. As did quantum, gravity, spacetime. Fern fossils teach us a great deal about the fractal nature of the universe.

    What on Earth are you going on about suggesting that it's pointless to leave knowledge recorded? This thread stayed quiet since you posted that. It took me several days to come back to it, even. I think you left everyone who read that dumbfounded as to what irrational tangent you went wandering off on, there.
    Too esoteric?
    The only time I am aware of us leaving an artifact designed to communicate with a future (alien) intelligences was Sagan's Synopsis of man's science in that rocket we shot into space. That tablet did indeed convey, "this is who we are and this is how smart we are".

    I am solely to blame for the collapse of this discussion? Check the dates between #57 and 58. Was, Kojax responsible for the collapse of the discussion?

    I am trying to make a distinction between finding a historic artifact and probability of finding an artifact of a new and heretofore unknown science. Whatever historical scientific records we find only confirm what we already know about the state of science then.

    And no record of anything still unknown has ever been found? What the hell, seriously?!
    I mean, no human record of anything "still unknown" has ever been found. It is not profound, but it is true.
    Can you name me something which some "prophet" predicted, that in fact became true and scientifically explainable. After discovering the principle of Relativity, it took Einstein several years to prove it. By that time it was not new anymore.

    BTW, I do recognize scientific visionaries, such as Da Vinci, Galileo and their works were invaluable for future scientists.

    I don't see anyone, 10,000 years ago, having left the Heisenberg equation in a cave somewhere. I do see a lot of pictures of animals, but then all of them are known and no new species of animal are identified, except perhaps to the cave dwellers.

    Most of recorded anything includes mysteries and unknown factors.
    Absolutely, most of recorded anything includes observed events in history and in the case of miracles, the only explanation is of a spiritual nature and meaning, you know, that knowledge which is useless in science. All other discoveries are "timely" discoveries, based on what was known before.

    Hell, research anything, from the Human Brain, to Black Holes, to BBT to atmospheric phenomena. Most every recorded subject ever always has the underlying premise that we still have much to learn, much to discover, much to figure out.
    Of course, it is obvious that today's scientists stand on the shoulders of those who came before. That is the nature of Science.
    But note that you example is not based on discovering new knowledge left behind by "ancients". We discover things from studying Nature. We make artifacts of things we studied in Nature. Thus all artifacts are of things already known in Nature, i.e. old knowledge and the time when this knowledge was acquired.

    But IMO, most artifacts, other than actually working inventions, are all about society and "life" then, the rest were "miracles".
    You use the example of Relativity. Yet, Relativity is recorded so that future generations can learn it so they can know it so that they don't have to figure it out all over again, but rather, try to work with that knowledge to figure out how gravity and macroscopic facets of the Universe works with microscopic facets of the Universe.

    Write4u, you often make good posts. This was not one of them. This must be your worst post, ever.
    When we learned to throw a spear, we drew a picture of a man throwing a spear and an animal falling, bleeding. This hardly classifies as scientific knowledge. There was no mushroom cloud associated with that recorded event was there? I don't hear anyone saying, "wow, look at that efficient projectile with a sharp tip", "let's do away with atom bombs, they make so much noise and I hate noise pollution"

    Whatever was going on in your mind when you typed out that nonsense, I strongly recommend that you recognize what it was and, in the future, when you get that way again, refrain from posting and go outside for some fresh air.
    I ask that you may give this some more consideration.
    I did not say that information is useless, I am saying that the only way to leave an artifact of something which has not yet been invented, is if you travel back in time and plant this knowledge for future (past) generations to discover.

    "Chariots of the Gods" is such speculation. Great space traveling civilizations leaving "symbolic" markers to enlighten us in the future. I liked 2001 (a space odyssey) also.

    I guess I am not disputing the value of recorded history for reference of what is known. I am thinking more about the differences between "known facts" and "theoretical arguments based on known facts".
    Last edited by Write4U; May 9th, 2013 at 05:30 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Write4U View Post
    I agree in principle with that, but then ask yourself, is the bible a scientific document on which new technologies can be founded?
    You didn't say bible. You said, "2+2=4." What you just asked has nothing to do with what you previously said.
    Quote Originally Posted by Write4U View Post
    Too esoteric?
    The only time I am aware of us leaving an artifact designed to communicate with a future (alien) intelligences was Sagan's Synopsis of man's science in that rocket we shot into space. That tablet did indeed convey, "this is who we are and this is how smart we are".
    This is true and you're stay more on target with that line of thought to what the O.P stated. However, we do leave records of similar principle all the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Write4U View Post
    I am solely to blame for the collapse of this discussion?
    Did I say you were? Did I say, "Write4U, you are solely responsible for the collapse of this discussion."?
    No, I did not.
    I said, "You had a stupid attack with one post."

    Do not change my words. Ever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Write4U View Post
    I am trying to make a distinction between finding a historic artifact and probability of finding an artifact of a new and heretofore unknown science. Whatever historical scientific records we find only confirm what we already know about the state of science then.
    It only confirms what we have recorded. Yes, we've never discovered an artifact that has something new that was based on real science. Notice that which is in bold. There are plenty of artifacts that have mysteries or unknowns but are not scientific at all.
    But is there something wrong with the idea that a civilization might leave a record for future generations? Does never finding one that is scientific and deliberately intended to be employed by future generations make a fallacy of the idea?
    Quote Originally Posted by Write4U View Post
    I don't see anyone, 10,000 years ago, having left the Heisenberg equation in a cave somewhere.
    What does that have to do with anything? That means we shouldn't do that if the need arises.
    Quote Originally Posted by Write4U View Post
    When we learned to throw a spear, we drew a picture of a man throwing a spear and an animal falling, bleeding. This hardly classifies as scientific knowledge. There was no mushroom cloud associated with that recorded event was there? I don't hear anyone saying, "wow, look at that efficient projectile with a sharp tip", "let's do away with atom bombs, they make so much noise and I hate noise pollution"
    You seem to be on some kind of kick that if it wasn't good enough for cavemen, it's not good enough for us.
    I ask that you may give this some more consideration.
    Quote Originally Posted by Write4U View Post
    I am saying that the only way to leave an artifact of something which has not yet been invented, is if you travel back in time and plant this knowledge for future (past) generations to discover.
    This is true... But that's not the same as leaving a record of work that is not completed. For example, the human brain. This is work incomplete. We leave records of what we DO know, and hope that in the future, they are able to learn a great deal more.
    The O.P. did ask about a specific case...
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    Ok, verbatim.

    Neverfly,
    This thread stayed quiet since you posted that. It took me several days to come back to it, even. I think you left everyone who read that dumbfounded as to what irrational tangent you went wandering off on, there.
    It was gratuitous . If I was not clear, ask me to clarify. Don't give me your assessment that other readers are or could
    be dumbfounded by anything I say.

    The last I heard about the value of artifacts is not what they can teach us in the sciences, but what they can teach us about the civilizations at that time. A painting of people sitting around fire on the wall of a cave, does not teach us how to build fires. I does teach us that people used fire at that time.

    I cited the bible because many theists will claim that the bible is a first attempt at explaining the universe and therefore is a scientific document. This is of course not true.

    Unfortunately the bible is full of predictions of grand calamities and old manuscripts predict all sorts of knowledge, including how to make gold from lead. But we can do without such information, it does not teach us anything NEW.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Write4U View Post
    The last I heard about the value of artifacts is not what they can teach us in the sciences, but what they can teach us about the civilizations at that time. A painting of people sitting around fire on the wall of a cave, does not teach us how to build fires. I does teach us that people used fire at that time.
    The O.P. included the question of what if WE could leave a record for a future generation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Write4U View Post
    I cited the bible because many theists will claim that the bible is a first attempt at explaining the universe and therefore is a scientific document. This is of course not true.
    Perhaps, but you said it in a response to me and I did not say anything about the bible and your post I responded to did not say anything about the bible.
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    Write4U - were you trying to be ironic? There is some evidence that the Egyptians did carve E=mc2 in stone - to no effect.
    Perhaps another less contentious example - a 5 th C book called De nuptiis philologiæ et Mercurii by Martianus Capella includes a clear diagram of the spheres of Venus and Mercury orbiting the Sun. How did he 'know' that at that time?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Write4U View Post
    The last I heard about the value of artifacts is not what they can teach us in the sciences, but what they can teach us about the civilizations at that time. A painting of people sitting around fire on the wall of a cave, does not teach us how to build fires. I does teach us that people used fire at that time.
    The O.P. included the question of what if WE could leave a record for a future generation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Write4U View Post
    I cited the bible because many theists will claim that the bible is a first attempt at explaining the universe and therefore is a scientific document. This is of course not true.
    Perhaps, but you said it in a response to me and I did not say anything about the bible and your post I responded to did not say anything about the bible.
    Actually I am not disagreeing with you. I am skeptical that a system could be devised that could predict future cosmic calamities. The Butterfly effect is a clear example of the futility anticipating the future of the universe based on "tidbits" of information in the theoretical sciences.

    If we also throw in "revealed truth" of scripture, I am afraid that any predictive system is somewhat cloudy (uncertain?), to say the least.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Write4U View Post
    Actually I am not disagreeing with you. I am skeptical that a system could be devised that could predict future cosmic calamities. The Butterfly effect is a clear example of the futility anticipating the future of the universe based on "tidbits" of information in the theoretical sciences.

    If we also throw in "revealed truth" of scripture, I am afraid that any predictive system is somewhat cloudy (uncertain?), to say the least.
    True and I said about the same early on in the thread. Perhaps the wording of that one post was... questionable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Collins View Post
    Write4U - were you trying to be ironic? There is some evidence that the Egyptians did carve E=mc2 in stone - to no effect.
    Actually the Egyptians used Pi to build their pyramids. Of course they had no idea about the properties of Pi, but they used measuring wheels and measured distances by number of whole or partial rotations of the wheel. The use of a circle automatically invoked Pi into any dimensional equation.
    Perhaps another less contentious example - a 5 th C book called De nuptiis philologiæ et Mercurii by Martianus Capella includes a clear diagram of the spheres of Venus and Mercury orbiting the Sun. How did he 'know' that at that time?
    Your guess is as good as mine. Sharp eyes?
    Wiki,
    Presocratic philosophers rejected traditional mythological explanations of the phenomena they saw around them in favor of more rational explanations. These philosophers asked questions about "the essence of things":[4]
    From where does everything come?
    From what is everything created?
    How do we explain the plurality of things found in nature?
    How might we describe nature mathematically?
    Pre-Socratic philosophy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    But science was advancing rapidly even in those days, in spite of the church.
    Check out Hypatia, she was a 5 C astronomer and mathematician.

    Hypatia
    http://www.womanastronomer.com/hypatia2.htm
    Last edited by Write4U; May 10th, 2013 at 12:59 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Collins View Post
    There is some evidence that the Egyptians did carve E=mc2 in stone
    No there isn't.

    Perhaps another less contentious example - a 5 th C book called De nuptiis philologiæ et Mercurii by Martianus Capella includes a clear diagram of the spheres of Venus and Mercury orbiting the Sun. How did he 'know' that at that time?
    This is "contentious" because...?
    How did he know?
    Naked-eye observation, perhaps?
    If you're positing some other method the question one should ask is "why did he have the Sun and three other planets circling the Earth?"
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    "Actually the Egyptians used Pi to build their pyramids"
    More likely an fractional representation close to pi, or what ever 22/7 is in Egyptian, something like 3+1/7
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    I’ve read before that scientist have been tinkering with DNA to replace DVD’s and magnetic tape to store longer lasting and more reliable information, so how about we store information in our own DNA that would pass on through each generation like a message in a bottle? Or would that DNA mutate over time, thus scrambling the data over 5,000 years? It does sound like a stupid question, but that’s probably because it is, but hey
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    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    Wouldn't it be better to "fix" whatever problem we find out about today or in the near future? That way those humans in the future won't need to worry about something happening because we already have fixed it before it did happen.
    And if there are things that can not be avoided? ... like astronomical effects, ...
    Ancient Africans passed down their information through art and word of mouth. As said by Strange, there are still very old text and images that are being deciphered today. I am not sure there would be any guarantees of interpretations down the road though, but images go a far way. If there were predictions of a pending planetary collision no matter the time, I would think that images would be the best transport vehicle that would carry the message at least for the time mentioned.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    "Actually the Egyptians used Pi to build their pyramids"
    More likely an fractional representation close to pi, or what ever 22/7 is in Egyptian, something like 3+1/7
    p in the Great Pyramid

    In honor of their great discovery, the circumphillic Egyptians found a way to incorporate p into the architecture of Great Pyramid through a simple yet elegant vehicle:

    2pheight = perimeter

    This of course is same formula expressing the relationship between a circle's diameter and its circumference. What is even more interesting is that they did not even need to calculate p to employ it.

    By measuring using a wheel having the diameter of 2 units (cubits), they could roll out the perimeter exactly as many revolutions as the pyramid was units tall. Although p was never specifically calculated, its value became incorporated to a very high degree of accuracy. By some estimates, five decimal places. WOW!!!
    The Great Pyramid, The Great Discovery, and The Great Coincidence

    What I find most interesting is that by employing one universal constant, other universal constants are automatically invoked. This would indicate a mathematical connectedness and possible expression in reality.

    Thus by accessing "the system" with one of it's aspects, you invoke all the connected functions of that system. A self organizing mathematical environment, once you're in it, there is no escape.

    Draw a circle and you have invoked the law of Pi, which is a Potential (latent excellence) of a circle.
    Last edited by Write4U; May 10th, 2013 at 03:34 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapples View Post
    I’ve read before that scientist have been tinkering with DNA to replace DVD’s and magnetic tape to store longer lasting and more reliable information, so how about we store information in our own DNA that would pass on through each generation like a message in a bottle? Or would that DNA mutate over time, thus scrambling the data over 5,000 years? It does sound like a stupid question, but that’s probably because it is, but hey
    We can build DNA atom by atom, if only we knew how to make it function. The trick lies in the switches contained in each cell. It's easy to make a glob of goo, harder to make a shape and limbs, still harder to make it want to survive, still harder to make it thrive.

    But with nano technology I see a trend toward understanding spacetime reality, it's rules, and how to make use of them.
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    The very concept of leaving data for future descendants is fraught with unknowns.. As has been well said.

    Any predicted future event will be better understood by a advances race.. Maybe.,

    or they will not see it coming as we did not.. A Gamma Ray burst is here before we see it..

    Our historic record is not a good slice of reality.. The entire works of David Attenborough might be a good start for

    a future generation.. or not. If human society were to fail would or could it survive 5,000 years.. Hmm..

    I am not convinced any attempt to leave information would ever be read.. or found. By whom..

    If anarchy were to rule.. any structure found would fail surly. Our past record of humanist behaviour is disgusting..

    We would be writing messages for who ? what ?

    'Picture a future where Earths atmosphere becomes opaque. Where the sky is unseen'.. Orbiting satellites and the moon, ?

    What Moon ? Leaving a message for who is a good question.

    It would not take long for the historic record of humanity to be lost. The Universe cares not at all of us.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Therapy View Post

    Ok Look at these I have a lot more. Go to you tube.

    The Dogon & The Sirius Star System
    Dogon Cosmology - NASA baffled by N.W. African people!!!!!!! (3)
    dogons2k12
    The Sirius Mystery
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    None of that is any support for your claim whatsoever. Those people in the tribe didn't know there were any planets past Saturn. They did not know Sirius is a double star system. You've been reading bold claims and assertions that are not supported by any evidence and falling for it hook, line and sinker.
    Check this out.

    http://discovermagazine.com/1998/jun/ancientalteredst1456

    http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1302477/pg1

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_ucyiy1rKE

    ANCIENT EGYPTIAN MATH identical to MODERN COMPUTERS!!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Therapy View Post
    This is what I mean when I say everything from another culture is challenged and disregarded no matter what evidence is provided.
    Then you ought to learn to read.
    What has been challenged is the claim by the people that wrote the book.

    It might be challenged, but no one is able to say it is not true, not yet anyway.
    Rubbish.

    I guess the piramids is a myth also.
    Foolish diversion.
    You seem to have taken your hit today and maybe too much. Hahaha I am sure you can laugh or not?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therapy View Post
    Check this out.

    http://discovermagazine.com/1998/jun/ancientalteredst1456

    http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1302477/pg1

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_ucyiy1rKE

    ANCIENT EGYPTIAN MATH identical to MODERN COMPUTERS!!!!
    Check what out- more hogwash claims?
    You just believe anything, don't you? You could stand to learn some critical thinking.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Therapy View Post
    I do not know how to say this, there are something that we know and do not how we know them.
    What you're talking about is belief, not knowledge.

    I know dead matter from live matter. I could ask you, are you alive? or are you dead?
    Which doesn't support your claim.

    THROUGH THE WORMHOLE S03E03 IS THE UNIVERSE ALIVE HD720p: You tube.
    Nor does that.
    Well, answer the question if you can, are you dead or alive?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Therapy View Post
    Check this out.

    http://discovermagazine.com/1998/jun/ancientalteredst1456

    http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1302477/pg1

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_ucyiy1rKE

    Check what out- more hogwash claims?
    You just believe anything, don't you? You could stand to learn some critical thinking.
    ANCIENT EGYPTIAN MATH identical to MODERN COMPUTERS!!!!
    Ok, just check that one out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therapy View Post
    Well, answer the question if you can, are you dead or alive?
    I am alive.
    Why are you diverting from answering my questions?
    What does me being alive have to do with YOUR claim?
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    Lets not move too far away from the original thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Therapy View Post
    Well, answer the question if you can, are you dead or alive?
    I am alive.
    Why are you diverting from answering my questions?
    What does me being alive have to do with YOUR claim?
    So you are alive living in a dead universe?
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    And?

    http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1302477/pg1

    Crank site.
    Maths is maths. What's your point?


    Pure crank.
    It's the equivalent of numerology using names.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Therapy View Post
    Check this out.

    http://discovermagazine.com/1998/jun/ancientalteredst1456

    http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1302477/pg1

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_ucyiy1rKE

    ANCIENT EGYPTIAN MATH identical to MODERN COMPUTERS!!!!
    Check what out- more hogwash claims?
    You just believe anything, don't you? You could stand to learn some critical thinking.
    NF, you are getting to know me, I am a tought cookie when it comes to believing anything I have no experience of.
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  94. #93  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therapy View Post
    So you are alive living in a dead universe?
    It appears so.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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  95. #94  
    has lost interest seagypsy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therapy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Therapy View Post
    Check this out.

    http://discovermagazine.com/1998/jun/ancientalteredst1456

    http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1302477/pg1

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_ucyiy1rKE

    Check what out- more hogwash claims?
    You just believe anything, don't you? You could stand to learn some critical thinking.
    ANCIENT EGYPTIAN MATH identical to MODERN COMPUTERS!!!!
    Ok, just check that one out.
    You apparently don't know how to quote correctly or you are intentionally trying to misrepresent what people are saying. Try proofreading your posts so that you do not credit your idiotic remarks to other people. The above should look like this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Therapy View Post
    Check this out.

    http://discovermagazine.com/1998/jun/ancientalteredst1456

    http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1302477/pg1

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_ucyiy1rKE

    ANCIENT EGYPTIAN MATH identical to MODERN COMPUTERS!!!!
    Check what out- more hogwash claims?
    You just believe anything, don't you? You could stand to learn some critical thinking.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  96. #95  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Therapy View Post
    So you are alive living in a dead universe?
    It appears so.
    Are youreally serious?
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  97. #96  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therapy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Therapy View Post
    So you are alive living in a dead universe?
    It appears so.
    Are youreally serious?
    Was there a smiley attached?
    No.
    Therefore I'm serious.
    What's your point?

    Perhaps it would be better-phrased as "I'm alive in a non-living universe".
    "Dead" implies it was once alive.
    seagypsy likes this.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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  98. #97  
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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Therapy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Therapy View Post
    Check this out.

    http://discovermagazine.com/1998/jun/ancientalteredst1456

    http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1302477/pg1

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_ucyiy1rKE

    Check what out- more hogwash claims?
    You just believe anything, don't you? You could stand to learn some critical thinking.
    ANCIENT EGYPTIAN MATH identical to MODERN COMPUTERS!!!!
    Ok, just check that one out.
    You apparently don't know how to quote correctly or you are intentionally trying to misrepresent what people are saying. Try proofreading your posts so that you do not credit your idiotic remarks to other people. The above should look like this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Therapy View Post
    Check this out.

    http://discovermagazine.com/1998/jun/ancientalteredst1456

    http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1302477/pg1

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_ucyiy1rKE

    ANCIENT EGYPTIAN MATH identical to MODERN COMPUTERS!!!!
    Check what out- more hogwash claims?
    You just believe anything, don't you? You could stand to learn some critical thinking.
    Ok thanks for the tip, I am really not very good at the computer as yet.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  99. #98  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Therapy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Therapy View Post
    So you are alive living in a dead universe?
    It appears so.
    Are youreally serious?
    Was there a smiley attached?
    No.
    Therefore I'm serious.
    What's your point?

    Perhaps it would be better-phrased as "I'm alive in a non-living universe".
    "Dead" implies it was once alive.
    I rreally do not know how to deal with that answer. What is a non-living universe?
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  100. #99  
    ***** Participant Write4U's Avatar
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    Something does not have to be alive to function independently. Something does not have to be aware in order to perform mathematical functions. There is only one term which describes all the possible mathematical functions, states, conditions, fields, folds, etc. of the universe. I believe science calls it Dynamism.
    Dynamism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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  101. #100  
    Forum Professor astromark's Avatar
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    What message would we want to leave ? Is there examples of information lost ?

    How would you communicate with

    The future race.. Stone tablets or vinyl records..

    What possible use would a note from 5,000 years ago be ?

    What do you imagine they do not know ?

    and yes the Earths Moon might be a great place for keeping useless junk.. There's already some there.
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