Thread: Neverfly permanent suspension.

Neverfly has been permanently suspended from the thescienceforum.com

The decision does not come easily and only after nearly a week of deliberations between moderators, administrators and after reviewing several recent threads where Neverfly and members have engaged in long heated discussions.

The general view is that while Neverfly can and often does make substantive contributions to the forum, all too often he becomes the center of controversy after making adversarial comments that escalate into the forum equivalent of shouting matches, self-centered claims often dismissive of other's feelings, inability to self-reflect, mixed in with open hostility and distrust of moderators and administrators.

There have been repeated attempts to encourage Neverfly to join as a civil member of the forum, a member concerned enough to recognize that some subjects are inherently sensitive and deserves appropriate caveats and careful diligence to keep conversations rolling rather than being swallowed up in emotion. Pages of commentary between members and staff alongside several temporary suspensions have not been effective, and instead, been perceived as secretive, conspiratorial and sore points to continue to refer to long after others have moved on.

At the end of the day, we expect members to find their own niche in the forum, and along with making keen insights and knowledgeable contributions about science, continue to get along with other members.

Yes, getting along is important.

thescienceforum.com Staff

He even gets his own announcement. Is this like a headstone for a forum?

you mean like tombstone generator ?

Here lies Neverfly.

He was such a wonderful <redacted>

*​this message has been edited by John Galt

I enjoyed reading his material and am sorry to see him go.

Sigh.............

Originally Posted by cosmic traveller

I enjoyed reading his material and am sorry to see him go.

I agree, it's a damn shame. While he was sometimes confrontational (as am I and many others here) his posts were always interesting to read.

He's a smart guy, but who honestly didn't see this coming? His constant conflicts with the mod team were his choice. I would love to see him come back, but every thread which contained a disagreement with a mod would end up getting locked or going completely off-topic into some fight-the-power rant.

Had I not thought him a valuable member, I wouldn't have gone so far as to PM him about cooling off a little. It's a shame, but it's the consequence of his actions. Still, I've seen permabans lifted before so...hey, who knows.

Originally Posted by PhDemon

Originally Posted by cosmic traveller

I enjoyed reading his material and am sorry to see him go.

I agree, it's a damn shame. While he was sometimes confrontational (as am I and many others here) his posts where always interesting to read.

And most of the mods agree as well. In the end we just felt like we were left with no choice.

This is life

Originally Posted by cosmictraveler

I enjoyed reading his material and am sorry to see him go.

And, one may note, I myself took pause to engage Neverfly's more heated insistence in matters. Had certain others done that, he might just still have presence here, no? A very astute and knowledgeable individual is gone, the reasons for that falling on not only himself; unfortunately, there is no other reasonably equitable way, all members being considered.

I, for one, am impressed by the forthrightness of all replies here, expressing disappointment. I have observed members permanently banned from other forums, whose loss was not once mentioned by a single soul! I was one of those. That forum's loss was my gain, however. jocular

Thank you for posting this announcement, member KALSTER.
It will take a few days to get used to the idea that the Science Forum has lost another prolific poster.


PS: The decision makes me wonder if member seagypsy's activity on the SF will decrease. After all, she followed him here.

Originally Posted by sir ir r aj

This is life

Profound conclusion! Time to go forward. jocular

I did not get along with him at all. At all.

I found him boorish, bullheaded, and who often suffered from this sort of emotional breakdown who took every single disagreement with his posts personally and he saw it as a personal insult if someone disagreed with him. What would then happen would be this verbal and abusive spray because he took things so personally. That to disagree with his position on something would be to insult him personally. The people he hated, such as myself, he made sure we knew he hated us. So we could never be right, and his complaint that the moderators he had an issue with had an issue with him for political reasons, he also hated politically. And he was somewhat conspirational, the belief that there was a plot in the moderator forums against him perhaps (irony). If a moderator corrected him or asked him to tone it down, it was never because of his behaviour, but because that moderator hated him. Which was not always the case.

So I put him on ignore. It had gotten to the point where I found him so offensive, so personal, that it actually caused me to be stressed at a time where I do not need the stress. The way I saw it was that we may be somewhat similar but on opposite ends of the spectrum. I am also of the school that I won't get along with absolutely everyone I come into contact with and sometimes, ignore works on sites such as this.

That being said, I found that on his good days, he was insightful, very intelligent and some of the bad points he has also helped him be a good poster on those good days. He also had a very good sense of humour. Try as I might, I can't hate him and even though he is on ignore, I think this forum has lost someone who added to this site, even through all of his faults, but mostly, because of those faults. He demanded openess from the powers that be here. The irony that this openess has now come about at his ban probably won't be lost on him.

It's a shame he was not able to work out his differences with the moderator team.

And even though he is on ignore, I am sad to see him banned permanently.

Just my 2c anyway.

Dammit.

That is unfortunate , however I am not really surprised given his history with the moderators.

To be honest, I am more disappointed that he was banned even though he is a giant pain in the behind and lying and dishonest trolls like certain people are allowed to post here without censure.

Originally Posted by Cogito Ergo Sum

Thank you for posting this announcement, member KALSTER.
It will take a few days to get used to the idea that the Science Forum has lost another prolific poster.


PS: The decision makes me wonder if member seagypsy's activity on the SF will decrease. After all, she followed him here.

The answer is yes, but not due to his ban. I had already stopped signing in for reasons of my own. I only sign in now because he told me he was banned and so without signing in i read the announcement. And i feel the need to correct you. HE followed ME here. After I was permabanned with him for HIS behavior on another forum. The question is, will it happen again?

Originally Posted by seagypsy

The question is, will it happen again?

No.

Originally Posted by seagypsy

Originally Posted by Cogito Ergo Sum

Thank you for posting this announcement, member KALSTER.
It will take a few days to get used to the idea that the Science Forum has lost another prolific poster.


PS: The decision makes me wonder if member seagypsy's activity on the SF will decrease. After all, she followed him here.

The answer is yes, but not due to his ban. I had already stopped signing in for reasons of my own. I only sign in now because he told me he was banned and so without signing in i read the announcement. And i feel the need to correct you. HE followed ME here. After I was permabanned with him for HIS behavior on another forum.

My apologies for the error.
I must have misread one of your earlier posts.

Tranquille and I share the same opinion of Neverfly pretty much.

He also wound up in my ignore within a month of my coming to the forum and stayed there.

He had issues with the mods, obviously. I do believe he is an intelligent man, but he needs to channel his anger and chip on the shoulder to a better place. He was utterly, rude, and often demeaning for no reason to others.

However, there were moments of humor I saw in quotes of him from other chatters.

I don't like seeing anyone banned, but I am not surprised, sadly.

I wish him well.

Personally I thought he overstepped the mark a little when he said he wasn’t bothered by Jar Jar Binks in the Star Wars prequels.

I’m thinking a good moderator feature could be to allow mods to block an emotionally charged member permanently from commenting within a specific thread as an alternative, less sever, option to a suspension?

Originally Posted by pineapples

Personally I thought he overstepped the mark a little when he said he wasn’t bothered by Jar Jar Binks in the Star Wars prequels.

I never knew.

Actually, I've never read any of his posts on a forum.

Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw

Originally Posted by pineapples

Personally I thought he overstepped the mark a little when he said he wasn’t bothered by Jar Jar Binks in the Star Wars prequels.

I never knew.

Actually, I've never read any of his posts on a forum.

why are you lying? you have some posts in his star wa r thread.

I cant say I'm surprised although I've had him on ignore for a long time now. It is a shame because he did have some valuable contributions but they were too few and his confrontational posts were too many. C'est la vie....

I guess the Mods have their work to do and we have to support their efforts to keep the forum clean. I sadly find at times, so much hostility at members of the forum from people who seem upset with the world. I am not saying NF was.

I will miss him and am very sorry to hear of his permanent suspension, I am therefore asking the Mods to warn him about his behavior and give him a recovery time and reinstate him. He was although sometimes harsh, but quite to the point and willing to be impartial. Sometimes we have to learn to take the good with the bad.

Originally Posted by Stargate

I am therefore asking the Mods to warn him about his behavior and give him a recovery time and reinstate him.

They did. The 400 other times he was banned. The problem, from my perspective, was that he never made an attempt to change his behavior regarding conflicts with moderators. Had he come back and shown more humility to the authority of the mods or simply stopped participating in a thread which he felt was going to lead to conflict, maybe the situation would be different.

I still think he has a lot to contribute and could come back eventually, but I'm not particularly optimistic about it.

Sincerely and lovingly ...

The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

— The Rubáiyát of Omar Khayyám

Originally Posted by Flick Montana

Had he come back and shown more humility to the authority of the mods or simply stopped participating in a thread which he felt was going to lead to conflict, maybe the situation would be different.

that was not the issue - i don't mind if someone doesn't feel s/he has to grovel to the powers-that-be
from my own point of view, i didn't like it when the whole moderator team was tarred with the same brush because NF had his run-ins with a small number of the moderators + i also didn't like it that, when all we're trying to do is make this forum an inviting and inspirational place to visit, every move of ours is interpreted in the worst possible light

you may have noticed that the ban did not happen as the result of a massive flare-up in the forum - it was more the result of the drip-drip effect which after a lengthy debate amongst the mod team tipped the balance towards a permanent ban

You're right that I didn't notice any drip-drip effect. When I went into a thread where he and the mods were both active, I felt more like I was entering a minefield.

I liked his Avatar. Cloud Strife from Final Fantasy VII as he appeared in Kingdom Hearts.

I'll miss rubbing his fuzzy head.

cant control tears. it is like capital punishment. death death death death death death.

The moderator team doubtless have different motivations for having accepted the moderator role, but paramount among these is likely a desire to give something back to a forum that has provided intellectual stimulation, education and some fun. Participating in the forum takes up a small, but significant portion of ones life. I think I speak for the other mods when I say we have a genuine commitment to the best interests of the forum. This does not mean that each of our decisions - or absence of decisions - will be the best, or even a good choice, but our intention is always sincere and our concern for the forum, authentic.

I found especially painful NF's continual denial of this sincerity. He can no longer respond to observations made here, so it would be inappropriate to review this and other concerns. I shall say that I consider myself fully accountable to the membership and regret any all incidents in which the two are brought into seeming conflict. However, my actions then will always be what in my judgement is in the best interests of the forum.

I think the level of participation in this thread clearly demonstrates how much we liked and respected Neverfly, many of us will simply miss him not being around anymore, I don't however feel this is meant by anybody as a criticism or negative reflection on the staff or the decision they have taken, I think here that everyone probably understands and the staff have gone to great pains to try explain the situation, something which wasn't of their choosing.

Originally Posted by Ascended

I think the level of participation in this thread clearly demonstrates how much we liked and respected Neverfly, many of us will simply miss him not being around anymore, I don't however feel this is meant by anybody as a criticism or negative reflection on the staff or the decision they have taken, I think here that everyone probably understands and the staff have gone to great pains to try explain the situation, something which wasn't of their choosing.

That pretty much sums it up.

The fact that a thread was created about this demonstrates what a hard decision it must have been.

we also wanted to be seen to be up-front about it

Originally Posted by marnixR

we also wanted to be seen to be up-front about it

Appreciated. It dispels rumors et al.

Originally Posted by KALSTER

The general view is that while Neverfly can and often does make substantive contributions to the forum, all too often he becomes the center of controversy after making adversarial comments that escalate into the forum equivalent of shouting matches, self-centered claims often dismissive of other's feelings, inability to self-reflect, mixed in with open hostility and distrust of moderators and administrators.

Kalster et al, I know you are intelligent arbiters of forum justice but I think everyone misses the point. Sure Neverfly exhibited similar behaviour on another forum, or so I've read, but its's just an internet persona he's developed. He's probably a real nice guy in person but we don't know. The point is that this is the internet, even soft spoken sycophants could be hiding a dark alter ego, pretending to be someone they are not. Internet personalities are cultivated from active participation, sadly something most forum members have trouble doing. I see it differently than most I guess, although informative at times I see a forum as entertainment. I know I've said that before but why do we keep coming back if we didn't like it , find it enthralling or interesting? What a sad world it would be if there were no Neverfly's, and it's just as sad to see people get bent out of shape over something we encounter every day of our lives....people expressing an opinion but not in a way we can accept or think others should either. I'm able to look past it, why can't everyone? IMHO Neverfly was no crank, he had something to say and although diplomacy may have been lacking, there is no need to react with a suspension. Many people can express but not everyone knows how to use tact, and that is not a crime. I'll miss the guy.

Originally Posted by zinjanthropos

Originally Posted by KALSTER

The general view is that while Neverfly can and often does make substantive contributions to the forum, all too often he becomes the center of controversy after making adversarial comments that escalate into the forum equivalent of shouting matches, self-centered claims often dismissive of other's feelings, inability to self-reflect, mixed in with open hostility and distrust of moderators and administrators.

Kalster et al, I know you are intelligent arbiters of forum justice but I think everyone misses the point. Sure Neverfly exhibited similar behaviour on another forum, or so I've read, but its's just an internet persona he's developed. He's probably a real nice guy in person but we don't know. The point is that this is the internet, even soft spoken sycophants could be hiding a dark alter ego, pretending to be someone they are not. Internet personalities are cultivated from active participation, sadly something most forum members have trouble doing. I see it differently than most I guess, although informative at times I see a forum as entertainment. I know I've said that before but why do we keep coming back if we didn't like it , find it enthralling or interesting? What a sad world it would be if there were no Neverfly's, and it's just as sad to see people get bent out of shape over something we encounter every day of our lives....people expressing an opinion but not in a way we can accept or think others should either. I'm able to look past it, why can't everyone? IMHO Neverfly was no crank, he had something to say and although diplomacy may have been lacking, there is no need to react with a suspension. Many people can express but not everyone knows how to use tact, and that is not a crime. I'll miss the guy.

I generally agree with the sentiment at the beginning of your comment, I am not the same person here that I am on every other social network. This one is probably the closest to the "real" me, but they're all just "versions" of "IRL Stander-J". I believe it is the same for everyone else as well, and I don't believe anyone here thinks NF's online personality is exactly the same as his IRL personality. In fact it appears that pretty much everyone here can agree that on at least some level they like NF and will miss him.

I too will genuinely miss NF, but the fact remains that this community is based on objective, scientific discourse. The issue doesn't appear to be NF's "scienceyness" it's the objectivity. When the discourse becomes imflammatory, and too heated, the science is ruined because it stops being about the science. Then people get upset, and overall it becomes less fun participate in a community that is supposed to be about talking about science and having fun while doing it. This forum has drama to spare, and as much as I like NF, I don't like it when discourse in a topic is dimished to the perpetuation of vendettas while the prospect of actually learning something is completely derailed.

Originally Posted by stander-j

I too will genuinely miss NF, but the fact remains that this community is based on objective, scientific discourse. The issue doesn't appear to be NF's "scienceyness" it's the objectivity. When the discourse becomes imflammatory, and too heated, the science is ruined because it stops being about the science. Then people get upset, and overall it becomes less fun participate in a community that is supposed to be about talking about science and having fun while doing it. This forum has drama to spare, and as much as I like NF, I don't like it when discourse in a topic is dimished to the perpetuation of vendettas while the prospect of actually learning something is completely derailed.

Are, or should I say were, his comments that hard to ignore? If we are that focused on maintaining disciplined science then anything externally meaningless should be ignored. I think if you react negatively to language directed at you or if you engage in similar discourse with your detractor then your ability to stay focused is impaired. I would hope that science is capable of withstanding inflammatory critical language, it's to be expected. Our government takes a shit kicking every day from constituents, but our representatives don't start trading insults with the electorate, they stay the course.

We're all different. I can see if one is sensitive then banishment figures to be the correct course of action. Cheers

Originally Posted by zinjanthropos

Are, or should I say were, his comments that hard to ignore? If we are that focused on maintaining disciplined science then anything externally meaningless should be ignored.

Were you around in the Usenet days? I ask because they are unmoderated, and all of them are now effectively useless due to spam. You simply can't find anything amongst all the ads for Viagra and HOT ASIAN CHICKS. Likewise, in several other (weakly moderated) forums I frequent, the signal to noise ratio gets very low due to all the attacks, the unrelated junk that gets posted etc. To a large degree, the value of a board is based on the _average_ value of its posts - and many of those forums are very low value indeed, even if there are hidden gems.

I moderate another board so I know how much work it is to do a good job, and I applaud the team here for how well they have maintained this forum. It is noticeably cleaner and more on-topic than most. That will tend to attract better posters, which in turn makes it a better experience for everyone.

I would hope that science is capable of withstanding inflammatory critical language, it's to be expected.

I think it is - but forums may not be capable of withstanding being overloaded with flaming, unrelated material and attacks. People simply move to a better one. I understand why a website owner would not want that to happen.

Our government takes a shit kicking every day from constituents, but our representatives don't start trading insults with the electorate, they stay the course.

Well, some of them do, anyway . . .

We're all different. I can see if one is sensitive then banishment figures to be the correct course of action. Cheers

Or if one simply prefers science to flaming.

Originally Posted by zinjanthropos

Originally Posted by stander-j

I too will genuinely miss NF, but the fact remains that this community is based on objective, scientific discourse. The issue doesn't appear to be NF's "scienceyness" it's the objectivity. When the discourse becomes imflammatory, and too heated, the science is ruined because it stops being about the science. Then people get upset, and overall it becomes less fun participate in a community that is supposed to be about talking about science and having fun while doing it. This forum has drama to spare, and as much as I like NF, I don't like it when discourse in a topic is dimished to the perpetuation of vendettas while the prospect of actually learning something is completely derailed.

Are, or should I say were, his comments that hard to ignore? If we are that focused on maintaining disciplined science then anything externally meaningless should be ignored. I think if you react negatively to language directed at you or if you engage in similar discourse with your detractor then your ability to stay focused is impaired. I would hope that science is capable of withstanding inflammatory critical language, it's to be expected. Our government takes a shit kicking every day from constituents, but our representatives don't start trading insults with the electorate, they stay the course.

We're all different. I can see if one is sensitive then banishment figures to be the correct course of action. Cheers

I've actually ever only had one discussion with NF that got too heated for my liking. I manage to slip by without getting into very many of them, this is mostly just luck... One day that bell will toll again whether I like it or not. In my earliest days on this forum I made what I now feel was a mistake and let my passion for African History and Politics get in the way of what might otherwise have been a good discussion about the West's role in the disenfranchisement of Third-World Nations. What I learnt from that debate turned argument was that passion needs to stay in check, because it ruins the experience not just for me or the person I'm speaking with - but everyone who is reading it as well.

It's not that it is hard to ignore, stay out of, or deal with heated debate its an issue of the forum's role and what I imagine is its very purpose for being. Here, the discussions we have with one another do not just benefit those involved - but everyone reading it as well. I learn about as much from the discussions I don't participate in as the ones that I do participate in. If, however, I am reading a debate turned namecalling, then what I have learned? Remember, at any given time this forum has way more guests - arguably read-only users - than it does active users. This site is for them just as much as it is for us, and not even us active users participate in every discussion we read. We're all here to learn, help others learn, and have fun in the process. Nobody gets that when a debate turns into a glorified exercise in mudslinging.

So much wisdom.. so few contribute and for some if not most, simply looking for something interesting to read and get into.
I always enjoyed Neverfly. I found his contributions some times a little rough, even rude., but never without good cause..
and he always got a smile from me.. A little abrupt for the mod team.. and upset them at your peril.. and this is what happens when you ruffle feathers. It's a shame but he knew what would happen.. and it did. The reward for rudeness is to be banned. I have learned from my expulsion from 'BAUT'. You can not change the way people are. To try is a pointless effort wasted. I do have issues that we all could look at, comment on, and move forward making this a better forum. It's the putting right that counts. My view; That we should talk with, not at each other. Talk as if you were facing those whom you are talking to. Be as polite as you tactfully make your points.. and as it sounds simple, so it could be.." Treat others as you would want to be treated." I think it is as simple as that. I have noted that some adopt a very aloof stance. They will not be challenged and never will concede errors of judgment.
It surprises me that well educated and no longer spoiled by youthful arrogance yet some how think they can bully and insult without cost. Note, I am no longer talking of NF.. and will not point that finger or insult. We should all try to be what we expect of others. Open hostility breeds more hostility. Learning to calm the waters and be bending and not afraid to concede a fault..
Striving to be a better person, not a arrogant bully. Never answer a post that has angered you until you have considered the next reaction. Cause and effect. Like a game of chess. You think you are well educated and know what others might not. Then pause a little and reflect. Does anyone want to hear what you were about to say.. is it fair, relevant, helpful ? and I hope you think I have been...

Originally Posted by astromark

A little abrupt for the mod team.. and upset them at your peril.. and this is what happens when you ruffle feathers. It's a shame but he knew what would happen.. and it did. The reward for rudeness is to be banned

imo that's not why he was banned - it's because he thoroughly upset a number of members in a few recent altercations and reduced them to tears, and then fail to acknowledge that he'd overstepped the mark or offer any form of apology

remember, the golden rule in any forum is "don't go out of your way to insult, don't go out of your way to feel insulted" - NeverFly failed, and often badly, on both counts
also, claiming that others did the same and got away with it because of favouritism or because they were a mod is no excuse

Originally Posted by marnixR

Originally Posted by astromark

A little abrupt for the mod team.. and upset them at your peril.. and this is what happens when you ruffle feathers. It's a shame but he knew what would happen.. and it did. The reward for rudeness is to be banned

imo that's not why he was banned - it's because he thoroughly upset a number of members in a few recent altercations and reduced them to tears, and then fail to acknowledge that he'd overstepped the mark or offer any form of apology

remember, the golden rule in any forum is "don't go out of your way to insult, don't go out of your way to feel insulted" - NeverFly failed, and often badly, on both counts
also, claiming that others did the same and got away with it because of favouritism or because they were a mod is no excuse

That's a two way street, you may say he went out of his way to offend. but others went out of their way to be offended. Really, breaking down into tears because someone said something you didn't like on the internet? Where is that thick skin you guys always tell others to grow? Should that not going out of their way to be offended not also apply to the ones breaking down into tears?

I remember once, Kalster told me that being in a bad situation, emotionally and medically at the time(was adjusting to new antiseizure medication and recovering from a grand mal), is not a free pass to abuse people. And I agree with him completely on that. I even asked him to suspend my account for 30 days because my behavior, even at home was erratic and unpredictable, seemingly on autopilot for a while. But he didn't and I was allowed to get away with it without any official warning. There was discussion but only because I personally brought it up in a thread. But before I brought up the thread apologizing for my behavior, i was an outright Bitch to someone, who ultimately was banned for lashing out at me with equal ferver to my own and was permabanned for doing so, even though he had been a strong contributer in the physics forums. What have I contributed scientifically speaking? NOTHING, but I am cute and female so that makes it ok I guess. it seems to me the females are coddled on here as if we are simply too inept to be emotionally stable.

Others are doing it, No excuse? Sure, so why are the others excused for it? Why are they not being reprimanded for it? I don't think it's all the mods, but hey, I can relate, Who can stand to hear the nagging and whining of a few that want to hold the others under their thumb.


Why don't you start holding the "ladies" of this forum to the same standards you hold the men to. Women CAN control their emotions. Scheherazade is a proverbial rock that any of us could learn from. Wegs is a softer personality but still very controlled most of the time. I won't comment on my ability to control myself because my ability is ignored. I am accused of being emotional and saying things I didn't say, simply because NF said it and I am his wife, so heaven forbid I be treated like an independent woman. So much for the feminist movement.

And how about mods actually read the threads before they take any kind of action. One mod admitted in a pm to me that my posts in a thread had not actually been read by said mod, and that they had only skimmed over the thread briefly and decided to just back up the other mod who, in a conflict of interest do to their own participation in the thread, decided that both NF and myself were guilty of trouble making, simply because there was a disagreement and both of us were participating in the thread.

Both mods, when I privately confronted them on it, agreed that I was not involved after reading my posts and removed my name from the chastisement, but I am left wondering, how often do they just "instinctively" issue warnings without actually reading the posts. And why is it that mods issue moderator actions in threads they are personally, and sometimes emotionally, involved in. That is a huge conflict of interests and strains the objectivity of the moderator who chooses to do so.

I don't think any mods intentionally or maliciously create havoc in the forum, but little things like this do make it difficult for someone like me, one who does not generally get into flame wars by my own doing. I tend to try to mediate them and get them to relax but my efforts, my words are ignored and instead of reading my posts, every angry word exchanged in the thread between other people is attributed to me. Some of these flare ups have been so insane it seems the mods cannot keep track of who said what. I have been chewed out and accused of saying things that other female members actually said, with no retraction or apology from the mods that did it when I pointed it out to them. And of course, when it was pointed out, they didn't chew out the other lady. It was ok for her to say it but not me.

So maybe there is no favoritism. Just a strong negative bias, which in my case was earned simply by being married to NF.

Originally Posted by seagypsy

Originally Posted by marnixR

Originally Posted by astromark

A little abrupt for the mod team.. and upset them at your peril.. and this is what happens when you ruffle feathers. It's a shame but he knew what would happen.. and it did. The reward for rudeness is to be banned

imo that's not why he was banned - it's because he thoroughly upset a number of members in a few recent altercations and reduced them to tears, and then fail to acknowledge that he'd overstepped the mark or offer any form of apology

remember, the golden rule in any forum is "don't go out of your way to insult, don't go out of your way to feel insulted" - NeverFly failed, and often badly, on both counts
also, claiming that others did the same and got away with it because of favouritism or because they were a mod is no excuse

That's a two way street, you may say he went out of his way to offend. but others went out of their way to be offended. Really, breaking down into tears because someone said something you didn't like on the internet? Where is that thick skin you guys always tell others to grow? Should that not going out of their way to be offended not also apply to the ones breaking down into tears?

I remember once, Kalster told me that being in a bad situation, emotionally and medically at the time(was adjusting to new antiseizure medication and recovering from a grand mal), is not a free pass to abuse people. And I agree with him completely on that. I even asked him to suspend my account for 30 days because my behavior, even at home was erratic and unpredictable, seemingly on autopilot for a while. But he didn't and I was allowed to get away with it without any official warning. There was discussion but only because I personally brought it up in a thread. But before I brought up the thread apologizing for my behavior, i was an outright Bitch to someone. Maybe because it was towards someone that others were getting tired of that I got away with it, or maybe it was because I am a female and it seems to me the females are coddled on here as if we are simply too inept to be emotionally stable.

Others are doing it, No excuse? Sure, so why are the others excused for it? Why are they not being reprimanded for it? I don't think it's all the mods, but hey, I can relate, Who can stand to hear the nagging and whining of a few that want to hold the others under their thumb.


Why don't you start holding the "ladies" of this forum to the same standards you hold the men to. Women CAN control their emotions. Scheherazade is a proverbial rock that any of us could learn from. Wegs is a softer personality but still very controlled most of the time. I won't comment on my ability to control myself because my ability is ignored. I am accused of being emotional and saying things I didn't say, simply because NF said it and I am his wife, so heaven forbid I be treated like an independent woman. So much for the feminist movement.

And how about mods actually read the threads before they take any kind of action. One mod admitted in a pm to me that my posts in a thread had not actually been read by said mod, and that they had only skimmed over the thread briefly and decided to just back up the other mod who, in a conflict of interest do to their own participation in the thread, decided that both NF and myself were guilty of trouble making, simply because there was a disagreement and both of us were participating in the thread.

Both mods, when I privately confronted them on it, agreed that I was not involved after reading my posts and removed my name from the chastisement, but I am left wondering, how often do they just "instinctively" issue warnings without actually reading the posts. And why is it that mods issue moderator actions in threads they are personally, and sometimes emotionally, involved in. That is a huge conflict of interests and strains the objectivity of the moderator who chooses to do so.

I don't think any mods intentionally or maliciously create havoc in the forum, but little things like this do make it difficult for someone like me, one who does not generally get into flame wars by my own doing. I tend to try to mediate them and get them to relax but my efforts, my words are ignored and instead of reading my posts, every angry word exchanged in the thread between other people is attributed to me. Some of these flare ups have been so insane it seems the mods cannot keep track of who said what. I have been chewed out and accused of saying things that other female members actually said, with no retraction or apology from the mods that did it when I pointed it out to them. And of course, when it was pointed out, they didn't chew out the other lady. It was ok for her to say it but not me.

So maybe there is no favoritism. Just a strong negative bias, which in my case was earned simply by being married to NF.

SG, words are powerful, they can cause serious emotional damage, I suspect NF knew that. On the other hand I think people who come to the forum should realize that this is a place where all cultures and different types of people congregate. I am not so much in favor of suspending anyone, however there has to be a point when things are put back in order when lack of order has been lost, I guess this is where the mods have to show determination.

Originally Posted by Stargate

Originally Posted by seagypsy

Originally Posted by marnixR

Originally Posted by astromark

A little abrupt for the mod team.. and upset them at your peril.. and this is what happens when you ruffle feathers. It's a shame but he knew what would happen.. and it did. The reward for rudeness is to be banned

imo that's not why he was banned - it's because he thoroughly upset a number of members in a few recent altercations and reduced them to tears, and then fail to acknowledge that he'd overstepped the mark or offer any form of apology

remember, the golden rule in any forum is "don't go out of your way to insult, don't go out of your way to feel insulted" - NeverFly failed, and often badly, on both counts
also, claiming that others did the same and got away with it because of favouritism or because they were a mod is no excuse

That's a two way street, you may say he went out of his way to offend. but others went out of their way to be offended. Really, breaking down into tears because someone said something you didn't like on the internet? Where is that thick skin you guys always tell others to grow? Should that not going out of their way to be offended not also apply to the ones breaking down into tears?

I remember once, Kalster told me that being in a bad situation, emotionally and medically at the time(was adjusting to new antiseizure medication and recovering from a grand mal), is not a free pass to abuse people. And I agree with him completely on that. I even asked him to suspend my account for 30 days because my behavior, even at home was erratic and unpredictable, seemingly on autopilot for a while. But he didn't and I was allowed to get away with it without any official warning. There was discussion but only because I personally brought it up in a thread. But before I brought up the thread apologizing for my behavior, i was an outright Bitch to someone. Maybe because it was towards someone that others were getting tired of that I got away with it, or maybe it was because I am a female and it seems to me the females are coddled on here as if we are simply too inept to be emotionally stable.

Others are doing it, No excuse? Sure, so why are the others excused for it? Why are they not being reprimanded for it? I don't think it's all the mods, but hey, I can relate, Who can stand to hear the nagging and whining of a few that want to hold the others under their thumb.


Why don't you start holding the "ladies" of this forum to the same standards you hold the men to. Women CAN control their emotions. Scheherazade is a proverbial rock that any of us could learn from. Wegs is a softer personality but still very controlled most of the time. I won't comment on my ability to control myself because my ability is ignored. I am accused of being emotional and saying things I didn't say, simply because NF said it and I am his wife, so heaven forbid I be treated like an independent woman. So much for the feminist movement.

And how about mods actually read the threads before they take any kind of action. One mod admitted in a pm to me that my posts in a thread had not actually been read by said mod, and that they had only skimmed over the thread briefly and decided to just back up the other mod who, in a conflict of interest do to their own participation in the thread, decided that both NF and myself were guilty of trouble making, simply because there was a disagreement and both of us were participating in the thread.

Both mods, when I privately confronted them on it, agreed that I was not involved after reading my posts and removed my name from the chastisement, but I am left wondering, how often do they just "instinctively" issue warnings without actually reading the posts. And why is it that mods issue moderator actions in threads they are personally, and sometimes emotionally, involved in. That is a huge conflict of interests and strains the objectivity of the moderator who chooses to do so.

I don't think any mods intentionally or maliciously create havoc in the forum, but little things like this do make it difficult for someone like me, one who does not generally get into flame wars by my own doing. I tend to try to mediate them and get them to relax but my efforts, my words are ignored and instead of reading my posts, every angry word exchanged in the thread between other people is attributed to me. Some of these flare ups have been so insane it seems the mods cannot keep track of who said what. I have been chewed out and accused of saying things that other female members actually said, with no retraction or apology from the mods that did it when I pointed it out to them. And of course, when it was pointed out, they didn't chew out the other lady. It was ok for her to say it but not me.

So maybe there is no favoritism. Just a strong negative bias, which in my case was earned simply by being married to NF.

SG, words are powerful, they can cause serious emotional damage, I suspect NF knew that. On the other hand I think people who come to the forum should realize that this is a place where all cultures and different types of people congregate. I am not so much in favor of suspending anyone, however there has to be a point when things are put back in order when lack of order has been lost, I guess this is where the mods have to show determination.

Yes, and NF is a machine without emotions? He is expected to suck it up when people tell him to fuck off or accuse him of saying or doing or thinking things that he does not. These are emotional triggers for anyone I would think. Should the ones attacking him and contributing to a flame war not also be reprimanded for their participation. Flame wars require multiple participants. Yet he, and if I make the mistake of saying hello in the same thread, are the only ones blamed for those flame wars. Interestingly enough, they are almost always with the same people. He doesn't get into flame wars with everyone, Just the people who are just as bad as he is. Determination needs to be acted on with an even hand. I think they should all be banned for a while. The 2 mods he generally fights with as well as one or two other members.

on the note of even handedness, and my observation of uneven handling of female posters,
If guys go on talking about their genitals and screwing or masturbating on a regular basis, they are told to tone it down, but a female can talk graphically and unnecessarily about her vagina in any thread, and getting nookie and masturbating whenever and wherever she likes and nothing is said to her. No one publicly tells her to show a little decorum.

Anyway, This is the last i have to say on the issue. I'm sure there is at least one or two mods jumping for joy that they have an excuse to ban me since I am not allowed to agree with NF. Yes, I have been told in PM by a couple of mods to stop agreeing with NF in threads. One mod even told me to never post against said mod again in a hostile insulting and threatening PM which I forwarded to an administrator and it was seemingly handled. So while they say in this thread that they did all they could. I saw some of the PMs NF received (while standing over his shoulder)and they were full of adhoms and insults. Not exactly tactful or seeming to show any effort to de-escalate the situation. They were daring him most of the time. Only one administrator ever dealt with him respectfully and it wasn't Kalster. Kalster wouldn't respond to pms and still doesn't respond to mine. so I don't bother with him now. He wrote me off at some point for no reason other than being married to NF and he is unable to see me as an individual. In his eyes, I am guilty of every argument NF got into with anyone.

So now they want to appear upfront about things. Why now? After all this time, well isn't that special. Upfront to tell the spin they want the members to hear about how they dealt with NF. I'm not saying NF is innocent but he was not alone in his actions. When you see two people fighting in the street, there are two people guilty of assault.

I cannot address the specific examples you have mentioned of bias, since I don't know which ones they were and, as far as I know, was not involved in any of them.

I will say that you may be confusing balance with bias. There was a recent instance in which a member made an uncharacteristic personal attack on another member. Because of this member's good standing and normally level headed behaviour he got away with two independently generated pm's from mods asking him to cool it and pointing out that he had gone rather to far. His response was to acknowledge he had overstepped a boundary and to note, I think, that the provocation was not a justification. I have seen other members when given a similar warning launch into a lengthy, angry, aggressive rebuttal by pm, refusing utterly to acknowledge any wrongdoing. I don't think it is biased to give the former member the benefit of the doubt from time to time and to progressively come down harder on the latter. Do you disagree with that approach and if so, why?

I see no evidence for your claim that female members are treated differently. I am, for the most part, unaware of who is male and who is female. I guess I know Babe, Scheharazade and yourself are female. I believe Harold, Kalster, iNow and Marcus are male. I'm hard pressed to say with certainty about many of the others. I assume a lot to be male, simply since males seem to outnumber females on science forums, but am probably wrong in several instances. In other cases the user name or avatar leads me, perhaps incorrectly, to the opposite conclusion. I think of Ninja Pancakes as female because they have a name that ends with an "a". I think of Pavlos as female because they have a female avatar.

Does any of this influence what I say or how I say it? Unlikely. I respond to what is written, not who is writing it*. That is one of the challenges of moderating. In the mod role one also has to reflect on who is writing.


*If I know or suspect the writer is young I will make an additional effort to be clear, encouraging and patient in my communications with them.

SG, what can I say you are right in many aspect, I do see your point, but where do we stop so it can make the forum a place of joy and release. We are all sadly regretting the absence of NF although we all know that to some extent he is hard, and not to say that some of the ones he was hard to should also be banned. I am sure it is hard for some to cope with the abuse thrown at them sometimes from people who are not really upset with them personally, but upset at the neighbors, or the milk man, or who ever, and bring it to the forum. I have read some of NF post and I can only say he is hard at time but I did not find him so bad, and most of all he sticks to his points and does not follow anyone like a lot of posters I know.

After reading some of the above posts, I want this guy back now.

Shame on the mod team for banning such an intriguing character!

Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw

... for banning such an intriguing character!

so do you want to unban Futilitist while you're at it ? he certainly was intriguing

Is Farsight banned here too?

Futilitist and fFarsight were cranks, NF, I'm assuming he wasn't.

Originally Posted by seagypsy

Only one administrator ever dealt with him respectfully and it wasn't Kalster. Kalster wouldn't respond to pms

I stopped responding to some PMs and specifically to emails I received from both of you after I gave you some time off at one point. I told both of you why I did it.

But before that there were MANY PMs to and fro, almost from when you started, almost all of them dealing with his conduct and there were a large number of exchanges in threads as well. In fact, most that needed to be said was in threads, especially later on. At some point though, enough is enough. We had covered Neverfly's tendency to overreact and assume the worst possible meanings in some exchanges, even with some of the most level headed people we have on this forum. Because he very often talks sense and can be a valuable member when he keeps calm, it has taken this long for it to come to this. He was almost constantly in verbose battles with a variety of members on the forum and the overall effect of it was a negative one.

At some point you get FED UP with having to keep abreast of every minute inferred slight and details of feuds across many threads involving many members and from having to deal with a constant barrage of accusations and diatribes about certain moderators.

You however are still here for a reason. Don't ignore the exchanges we did have and don't now accuse me of things that you are wrongly inferring. The other day I made a harmless joke and instead got accused of trying to goad you into a reaction so I can have a reason to ban you. You have over 3000 posts and Neverfly has more than 6600 posts and both of you have been here for a year. You keep insisting on being treated separately form Neverfly, but on more than one occasion have you jumped in and got with the action of whatever he was having an issue with at the time and now to the point of inferring some nonsense about me.

Yet, you have not nearly been the disruptive influence he had been, so me and a host of other mods have been taking the abuse, largely without taking the kind of action we get so easily accused of just waiting for excuses to take. If we were really looking for excuses, both of you would have been gone a long time ago. Instead I and others gave you the benefit of the doubt on many occasions, only to have it thrown back in my face now.

Neverfly told me that he thought I was a good Admin and that he has respect for me less than a month ago, despite our often heated exchanges. Make no mistake about it, THIS WAS NOT AN EASY ACTION TO TAKE. Both of you have been beneficial in other ways here and in different ways for the last year. Unfortunately it has now come to this and there is no going back.

I still hope you stick around, even though I probably won't normally converse with you in a non-official capacity any more.

Originally Posted by marnixR

Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw

... for banning such an intriguing character!

so do you want to unban Futilitist while you're at it ? he certainly was intriguing

Entertaining? Perhaps. Intriguing? Not really.

Originally Posted by seagypsy

..., but I am left wondering, how often do they just "instinctively" issue warnings without actually reading the posts.

I can only speak for myself. I would generally read through the entire thread if I am not familiar with it. On rare occasions I have done this twice to be sure I understand fully how things have developed. If I am not too familiar with the poster whose actions are being questioned I will read through a few of their recent exchanges to get a feel for their style and the quality of their contributions.

If the problem is from a persistent troublemaker - lets say a creationist who continually preaches - I will be indifferent to what may have prompted their post, but warn them or suspend them as appropriate, or tell the membership at large "move along, nothing to see here".

Originally Posted by seagypsy

And why is it that mods issue moderator actions in threads they are personally, and sometimes emotionally, involved in. That is a huge conflict of interests and strains the objectivity of the moderator who chooses to do so.

We have only a small team and that goal can be difficult to achieve. I and other mods have on a number of occasions asked the rest of the team to look at a situation we find problematic, but which we do not wish to adjudicate on because we believe our involvement would not be objective. I'm comfortable I can make that call quite effectively. I am also comfortable that I can speak at one moment as a moderator and a moment later as a member. The distinction should always be clear - I identify all remarks made as a mod. If you are not comfortable with that, I am afraid that becomes largely your problem and not mine. My mod job is not to be in agreement with everybody, or liked by anyone.

Originally Posted by seagypsy

I have been chewed out and accused of saying things that other female members actually said, with no retraction or apology from the mods that did it when I pointed it out to them. And of course, when it was pointed out, they didn't chew out the other lady. It was ok for her to say it but not me.

Could you explain how you know she was not reprimanded by pm? Sometimes we choose to issue warnings and 'advice' privately, other times publicly. It depends what we believe will be most effective. Do we get it right every time? No, we are not gods.

Originally Posted by seagypsy

on the note of even handedness, and my observation of uneven handling of female posters,
If guys go on talking about their genitals and screwing or masturbating on a regular basis, they are told to tone it down, but a female can talk graphically and unnecessarily about her vagina in any thread, and getting nookie and masturbating whenever and wherever she likes and nothing is said to her. No one publicly tells her to show a little decorum.

Did you report the offending posts? If not, why not? If so, what was the outcome? I have seen very little of this and I have also seen it criticised and more decorum requested. But thank you for drawing it to my attention. I shall wage a war on this particular practice. It is out of place in a forum that seeks to encourage visits by children.

Originally Posted by seagypsy

Anyway, This is the last i have to say on the issue. I'm sure there is at least one or two mods jumping for joy that they have an excuse to ban me since I am not allowed to agree with NF.

Two quotations come to mind:

Methinks the lady doth protest too much.
Hamlet, Act III Scene II

Peter Lorre: You despise me Rick, don't you?
Bogart: If I gave you any thought I probably would.
Casablanca

Now I don't despise you, but I certainly don't give you enough thought to lead to me to jump up and down for a post that is seriously non-banworthy. And I doubt any other mod would have a different reaction.

Edit: You made a number of comments concerning NF, his posts and the reactions to them. I repeat what I said in an earlier post. Since NF is not here to respond to comments I might make about him I shall not be replying to these particular comments of yours.

語是謗寂是誑語寂向上有路在.

There is much truth in the above, though the likes of Google Translate won't get you very far here. Sometimes, and especially now when another year draws to a close, it would be wise to try and take a step back, reflect on the reasons why we are here, and above all, what legacy we leave behind when the cycle ends, and a new cycle begins. It is important to examine this, as that is what defines our presence here; also, it affords us an opportunity to grow and better ourselves, going forward.

Remember ( and this goes to everyone ) : people will forget what we say, but they will never forget how we make them feel.

Originally Posted by Markus Hanke

語是謗寂是誑語寂向上有路在.

There is much truth in the above, though the likes of Google Translate won't get you very far here. Sometimes, and especially now when another year draws to a close, it would be wise to try and take a step back, reflect on the reasons why we are here, and above all, what legacy we leave behind when the cycle ends, and a new cycle begins. It is important to examine this, as that is what defines our presence here; also, it affords us an opportunity to grow and better ourselves, going forward.

Remember ( and this goes to everyone ) : people will forget what we say, but they will never forget how we make them feel.

Yes, well said.

~ Preconceived notions of behavior and standards of communication. It is easy to feel offended, yet you do not have the right to be never challenged. Wrong is wrong is wrong... If you can not have a adult conversation without resorting to name calling and rudeness you must question your own standards. Your education and ability to communicate your thoughts. We do not have the right to aggressively insult even the stupid.. and as much as we want to. We should moderate our own behavior. Treat as you would be treated.
~ About the ignore feature. I never use it. I am a nosy bastard and would hate to miss a interesting exchange just because I could not choose to ignore and not respond.. That is a freedom of choice issue.. I can read or not read. Responding is never compulsory.
Feeling offended is a right. Responding is a choice. You do not have the right to be never offended. How you react to it is the measure of who you are... and I am not so perfect,. I am guilty of not living up to my own demanding standard.. but see, it did not hurt me to show compassion, weakness is not a fault. A sense of fairness must win through to make this and these forums good and healthy places.. It's got to be a work in progress.. and I am always learning.. and not always fair. Yet. I seek improvement and my own included. I would have Neverfly back after a cooling of suspension. I still would judge his contributions as entertaining. I think banning of a interesting member is a loss of character we can not afford. The fault was real and Neverfly's. He pushed the boat out too far. It sunk.

I was the one moderator who didn't want to ban NF. While I could see how he gets under peoples skin, I didn't think it rose to the level of a ban. The fact he was criticizing the moderators didn't weigh into my thinking at all.

Here is the lessons I would take. Don't complain about somebody to the moderators just to vent or let off steam. Chances are some action may be taken eventually if enough people make enough noise over a long enough time.

Don't get too upset about what somebody posts on the internet. It's not real life. It's just words posted on the internet.

Hey guys perhaps it's time to think about wrapping this thread up, everyone has had plenty of chance to have their say and it no longer seems to be going anywhere productive, if it continues it seems likely it will just provoke more devision, it doesn't benefit the members, forum, staff or NF to drag this out any longer than necessary.

Moving on I think anyone who likes and wants to keep interacting with NF should get together with Seagypsy and see about finding a forum where NF can go and post, so at least he can keep in touch with some of the friends he has made here, this will allow everyone who wants to the opportunity to go and spend some time chatting with him, whilst avoiding any problems here and respecting the actions taken by thescienceforum staff. I hope this can be a comprise, of sorts, where everybody benefits.

I think in being VERY active on a forum you have to shed some practicality and take on some aspects of diplomacy. Because the simple trait of being very active will inevitably rub a LOT of people the wrong way, resulting in, well, this. I liked Neverfly, but sad that he didn't realise this obvious thing.

I am really impressed by this extended eulogy for our dear departed neverfly, even is he was exterminated by the state.

Originally Posted by Ascended

Hey guys perhaps it's time to think about wrapping this thread up, everyone has had plenty of chance to have their say and it no longer seems to be going anywhere productive, if it continues it seems likely it will just provoke more devision, it doesn't benefit the members, forum, staff or NF to drag this out any longer than necessary.

~ And there is another control freak. Why would you close a still active thread. You are sick of it, move on.. I have no doubt that some will want to say more.. That gets hard if the post is shut. If you are tired of it stop reading it. Do not come this way, it's not compulsory. If people tire of this it moves down the page.. and falls out the now open door.. Yes to your other idea that those of us who wish could go some place else.. That might not please this Forums admins... NF and others are already doing this.. at 'Spacetheuniverseandeverything' I enjoy the discussions of many sites. Why do you want to be controlling ?

Originally Posted by Markus Hanke

語是謗寂是誑語寂向上有路在.

There is much truth in the above, though the likes of Google Translate won't get you very far here. Sometimes, and especially now when another year draws to a close, it would be wise to try and take a step back, reflect on the reasons why we are here, and above all, what legacy we leave behind when the cycle ends, and a new cycle begins. It is important to examine this, as that is what defines our presence here; also, it affords us an opportunity to grow and better ourselves, going forward.

Remember ( and this goes to everyone ) : people will forget what we say, but they will never forget how we make them feel.

Applause...well said!!!!

Originally Posted by astromark

Originally Posted by Ascended

Hey guys perhaps it's time to think about wrapping this thread up, everyone has had plenty of chance to have their say and it no longer seems to be going anywhere productive, if it continues it seems likely it will just provoke more devision, it doesn't benefit the members, forum, staff or NF to drag this out any longer than necessary.

~ And there is another control freak. ........ Why do you want to be controlling ?

Ascended has offered a well-intentioned suggestion, designed to minimise the risk of provocation and descent into ill-humoured exchanges. He is done so in a calm and coopertive style. He has not demanded it. He has not said it is essential. He has diplomatically pointed out early signs of disagreement that may conceal long-standing rancour. And he has cautiously advocated giving thread closure some thought.

And you think those are the marks of a control freak! I think you need to re-calibrate your reading comprehension skills.

Originally Posted by Ascended

Hey guys perhaps it's time to think about wrapping this thread up, everyone has had plenty of chance to have their say and it no longer seems to be going anywhere productive, if it continues it seems likely it will just provoke more devision, it doesn't benefit the members, forum, staff or NF to drag this out any longer than necessary.

Moving on I think anyone who likes and wants to keep interacting with NF should get together with Seagypsy and see about finding a forum where NF can go and post, so at least he can keep in touch with some of the friends he has made here, this will allow everyone who wants to the opportunity to go and spend some time chatting with him, whilst avoiding any problems here and respecting the actions taken by thescienceforum staff. I hope this can be a comprise, of sorts, where everybody benefits.

At this point it's like beating a dead horse, so to speak. No "healing" will occur. I agree with you.

Moderator Comment: I dislike the idea of closing this thread, since it would appear as if the moderators were seeking to limit the opportunity of members to comment on the topic. Equally, I think Ascended makes an excellent point. I propose that any who agree with Ascended elect not to post in this thread anymore (including saying "that's a good idea").

Originally Posted by John Galt

Moderator Comment: I propose that any who agree with Ascended elect not to post in this thread anymore (including saying "that's a good idea").

This might be a good place to post that "Shut up shuttin' up" Bugs Bunny cartoon.

Okay, I won't post here anymore.

...d'oh!

Originally Posted by Flick Montana

Okay, I won't post here anymore.

...d'oh!

hahahaha
................................
A toast to neverfly, may he one day learn how to step outside the box.