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| jacketate |
 Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:21 am Post subject: Why greed? |
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a few days ago someone posted the topic on why guilt?
and it got into the subject, of whats best for the individual and whats best for the group, that a person feels guilt because although it may have been good for the individual it damages the group.
So i was wondering why greed exists. it is bad for the group obviously, some people will have less etc. but the individual doesn't need the excess, so why are people greedy and take as much as they can?
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| paralith |
| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:51 am Post subject: |
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People tend to be greedy when it comes to material things because during our evolution, resources were rarely in abundance. Having a strong drive to accumulate food and tools etc when they were available helped us better prepare ourselves for times of need, which are very common in the wild.
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Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
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| qwertyman |
| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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it all comes down to evelution.
some survival mechanisms are based on furthuring the existance of the species as a whole (guilt, sharing ect)
some are for the survival of an individual (greed, stealing ect)
basicaly greed is built in so that you (more importantly your genes) survive, rather than a competitor (and his/her genes) its just that this instict is stronger in some people than others.
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| 425 Chaotic Requisition |
| Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 4:13 am Post subject: |
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The Doctor
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I was about to say what paralith said, but she beat me to it  .
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| Cosmo |
| Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 6:20 am Post subject: Re: Why greed? |
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| jacketate wrote: |
a few days ago someone posted the topic on why guilt?
and it got into the subject, of whats best for the individual and whats best for the group, that a person feels guilt because although it may have been good for the individual it damages the group.
So i was wondering why greed exists. it is bad for the group obviously, some people will have less etc. but the individual doesn't need the excess, so why are people greedy and take as much as they can? |
Greed exista for the same reason chauvinsm exists. The OT has portrayed chauvinism as practiced by the lion that separates itself from the female with its 'hair armour(?) or crown(?).
The 1st 3 commandments are an example of this self serving greed.
Cosmo |
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| paralith |
| Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 9:29 am Post subject: Re: Why greed? |
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| Cosmo wrote: |
Greed exista for the same reason chauvinsm exists. The OT has portrayed chauvinism as practiced by the lion that separates itself from the female with its 'hair armour(?) or crown(?). |
Uh, what? A lion's mane is an honest signal of his physical condition. Female prefer males with longer and darker manes, and males with shorter and lighter manes avoid said males. This is because males with such manes have higher testosterone levels and are better fed and thus in better body condition. These males, should they get into a fight, are much more likely to win than a male with lower testosterone and body condition. However, both potential combatants can avoid combat entirely (saving both of them valuable energy and preventing possible injury), if the superior male is clearly marked by the condition of his mane, allowing the inferior male to know he has no hope of winning.
Since females do not compete with each other in this fashion, growing a mane at all is simply a waste of resources that would be better conserved for the production of offspring.
That's why there is a difference between male and female lions in respect to mane. It has nothing to do with greed. Except, maybe, that a lion can achieve higher body condition (and thus a darker longer mane) by greedily chowing down on as much meat as he can get. But a female will do that too, because a high body condition for her is important for successful pregnancies and periods of lactation for her young.
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Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
~Jean-Paul Sartre
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| Pendragon |
| Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 10:02 am Post subject: Re: Why greed? |
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| paralith wrote: |
Since females do not compete with each other in this fashion, growing a mane at all is simply a waste of resources that would be better conserved for the production of offspring.
That's why there is a difference between male and female lions in respect to mane. It has nothing to do with greed |
But collecting material possessions can be a very effective way of communicating physical abilities and social status.
I've read about isolated agricultural societies in Papua-New Guinea who link greed and status in a very direct way (it's not an online source so I can't paste a link; I could search for something comparable though). I think yams are the main food stuff in that region, and people can easily produce more of it than they need to stay alive. So at harvest time people work hard to harvest as much as they can, even if it's much more then they could possibly eat or sell to others. The surplus is displayed in special storage houses, placed right in front of the house (visable to all). The objective is not to store the food but simply to display it: by burying the food in dry places it wouldn't rot as fast as in the open air, but then nobody could see how much you own.
Having the biggest storage house with the best yams in it gives you a high status in the community. Someone who wouldn't spend his time amassing surplus yams that he doesnt need wouldn't be able to become village leader, you need to be able to show a big storage house to get such status.
Getting a wife also requires having lots of surplus yams because you have to be able to give big yearly gifts to the woman's parents. It's just moving yams from one storage house to another (so they rot there instead of in your storage house) and you get the same amount of yams back from them, so there's no net loss or gain. But if you don't have those yams in the first place then you can't play along.
The effect is the same as a lion who grows big manes: people waste time and energy to create something that has no direct function other than attracting a mate and getting social status. But in evolutionary terms it means you have to be physically healthy and skilled in order to play along, if you're cripple you can't harvest yams let alone harvesting a surplus that you don't need.
Another link between greed and evolutionary selection occurs in societies where theft and raiding aren't supressed by law enforcement. If you're able to steal lots of goods then either you're physically strong, or you have such a high social status that people wont stop you from taking their property. Often stealing food is a lot more work than just growing it yourself, and people often don't even steal food but symbolic goods (flags, treasures, ritual items). This greed can't be explained as getting what you need at minimal costs, but is rather a way to communicate to other people that you're physically strong and or have a high social standing.
Last edited by Pendragon on Sat Mar 29, 2008 10:12 am; edited 1 time in total |
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| paralith |
| Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 10:27 am Post subject: |
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As you'll see by my first post in this thread, I am by no means of the opinion that greed is not related to selection. You do not to do any convincing on that point with me.
My point is that greed is not the source of the sexual dimorphism between male and female lions. Both males and females are resource greedy, like any other animal, indeed any other organism on this planet. The fact that males display their resource state (as many male animals do, of course including humans) and that females do not is not rooted in males being any greedier than females.
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Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
~Jean-Paul Sartre
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| Cosmo |
| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 7:01 am Post subject: |
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Paralith
The lion is the only animal I know of that displays this chauvinism.
Just about all other cats and animals do not separate themselves from the females by their clothing(?). I use that word because of no other easy description.
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| i_feel_tiredsleepy |
| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:09 am Post subject: |
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| Cosmo wrote: |
Paralith
The lion is the only animal I know of that displays this chauvinism.
Just about all other cats and animals do not separate themselves from the females by their clothing(?). I use that word because of no other easy description.
Cosmo |
This is just untrue, traits like this are quite common, the antlers of many antilope and deer species are usually quite different in the males, especially in North American Caribou where the female has completely different antlers. Also, peacocks and many other birds will have modified feathers, morphological differences between the sexes are one of the most common things observed in nature.
Male tiger moths have to spray the female with paralytic pheramones to mate with her. How bout that for a display of chauvanism in nature  .
An image of a male (colourful and large) and female (small and plain) pheasants to display how this is common.
Click on the image to view it at its original size
Last edited by i_feel_tiredsleepy on Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:37 am; edited 1 time in total |
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| paralith |
| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:33 am Post subject: |
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| Cosmo wrote: |
Paralith
The lion is the only animal I know of that displays this chauvinism.
Just about all other cats and animals do not separate themselves from the females by their clothing(?). I use that word because of no other easy description.
Cosmo |
As tiredsleepy already said, a great deal of animals display distinct and sometimes remarkable sexual dimorphism (to the point that each gender was initially identified as separate species). Humans too are sexually dimorphic, with males being on average larger than females.
However, this is somewhat besides the point. Chauvinism, which I'm assuming you're using with the definition of males perceiving themselves to be superior to females, is NOT, can I say it again, NOT the cause of sexual dimorphism. If anything, it's individual males trying to show that they are superior to all the other males in order to impress the females. Females of many species are also "duller" because they need to camouflage themselves while they are birthing their offspring, to prevent either from being seen by predators in their vulnerable condition.
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Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
~Jean-Paul Sartre
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| geniusjames |
| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 12:52 pm Post subject: why greed? |
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why greed?...why do you think...its an in built feeling for survival of the fittest...obivously....
did u think Hitler wasnt greedy??... |
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| Pendragon |
| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 4:14 pm Post subject: Re: why greed? |
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| geniusjames wrote: |
why greed?...why do you think...its an in built feeling for survival of the fittest...obivously....
did u think Hitler wasnt greedy??... |
Your post adds nothing to the discussion. And I don't see why you need to drag Hitler into it (you give no reason or explanation). Please read the other posts and respond to them. |
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| Cosmo |
| Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 7:07 am Post subject: |
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Sleepy and Paralith
I knew there are such differences but the example above of the pheasants is not because of chauvinism but because of survival.
The hen has 'camoflouge' clothing for protection while the male has more visible dress to expose himself to the predators to draw them away from the female that would be 'egg' sitting.
My post is for why we have such greed in our human sector.
The behavior of our religious factions are derived from the bible predominantly.
Cosmo |
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| paralith |
| Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:25 am Post subject: |
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| Cosmo wrote: |
Sleepy and Paralith
I knew there are such differences but the example above of the pheasants is not because of chauvinism but because of survival. |
Survival, and reproductive success, yes. The same goes for the lions.
| Quote: |
| The hen has 'camoflouge' clothing for protection while the male has more visible dress to expose himself to the predators to draw them away from the female that would be 'egg' sitting. |
Also yes. I'd like to add that in most cases, rich colorful plumage is largely in order to impress a female, especially since only very healthy males (ones that can make a good genetic contribution to the offspring) are usually capable of producing such rich, vibrant pigments. In biparental birds, males will often take an active role in chasing away and even attacking predators, and in some cases they may flash their brightly patterned tail or wing feathers at the predator as part of their attack.
| Quote: |
| My post is for why we have such greed in our human sector. |
Uh huh. Then why, may I ask, did you talk about lions?
| Quote: |
| The behavior of our religious factions are derived from the bible predominantly. |
Yes, I'd imagine so. What does this have to do with greed?
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Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
~Jean-Paul Sartre
Monkeys in Clothes - hosted by SFN blogs |
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