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| Why can't atheists leave believers alone? |
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| Pendragon |
 Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 1:11 pm Post subject: Why can't atheists leave believers alone? |
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Sum1bored asked a comparable question here, but I'll make a new thread for the answer (it's not about the definitions of atheism so it would be offtopic there).
| Sum1bor3d wrote: |
Why can't Atheist be Buddhist and not attack on other Religion?  |
Atheism isn't a religion, so we can't say "you have your religion, we have our religion, let's not talk about it". Atheists reject all religions so we can't make exceptions, that wouldn't be honest. So I also reject metaphisical claims in Buddhism as nonsense, even if Buddhists may in fact be wonderful, peaceful people (that wasn't your question but I'd like to mention that for clarity).
If with attacking religions you mean arguing to people that it's nonsense to just accept what it says in some random book, then I don't see what's wrong with attacking religion. I think it's only healthy if people in a society feel the need to point out to eachother what they think is nonsense. Imagine the opposite, a society in which nobody really cares about eachothers ideas. Where people just nod "yea sure, we all have our own truth" at whatever people can come up with. Seen a UFO? "I'm sure you did, good for you!". You think the stars predict your future? "Sure base your decisions on the allignment of stars, that'll work out great!".
Wouldn't that be a society of zombies?
What if a close friend of yours suddenly converts to Scientology and starts selling his house and whatever he owns to buy 'courses' from the Scientology church? Would you say "sure, believe what you want, go ahead if you think that's the right thing"? Or would you care about him enough to try to convince him to reconsider his crazy behaviour?
What if that friend suddenly starts saying "people who don't believe in book X should be tortured in hell, it's my duty to fight against them"? Would you ignore it? Or would you try to talk that nonsense out of his head before he does something stupid based on this crazy idea?
Not attacking religion, in the sense of trying to persuade people that it's nonsense, is a sign of disinterest in society and lack of care for your fellow man/woman.
Let me go one step further: I think the world would be a better place if people would stop believing in any religion. People would find it easier to solve conflicts (especially international ones), they would have more understanding and respect for eachother and they would be able to make more sense of life. And people would spend their time and money to something more useful than building churches and learning nonsense texts from the bronze age by heart. |
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| 425 Chaotic Requisition |
| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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The Doctor
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I think that atheists are concerned about the mentality of religious believers, or any other pseudo beliefs. they think that those beliefs without proof and understanding will breed other beliefs the same. Those beliefs come into conflict and start battles. Basically an atheist wants to stop those 'false' beliefs as they can affect people and probably slow down the evolution of humankind and cause painful harm.
But... (and I never say but, I say however, so that means this is my personal opinion). Religious believers look at atheists and think the same way, that they do not want atheists to 'go to hell', or 'be punished'. Atheists want to help religious people from harm, and religious people want to help atheists from harm. And that harm is equally as painful to see on both sides.
Both parties feel the same reality to themselves, the same truths. They are just opposite. Do you understand what I mean?
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| Orleander |
| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Because they are arrogant. For some reason they can't handle people believing what they want, they have to agree with them. Why, because that proves they are smarter. Arrogant |
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| i_feel_tiredsleepy |
| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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Last I checked I've never seen atheist picketing outside schools demanding they teach evolutionary theory, however I have seen Christians get in quite a fit over it being taught.
Actually I don't think I've ever heard of any major atheist lobying group trying to interfere in people's lives... |
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| Orleander |
| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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| I agree. But atheists aren't blameless either. |
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| i_feel_tiredsleepy |
| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Orleander wrote: |
| I agree. But atheists aren't blameless either. |
Atheist shouldn't be generalized, they are not unified in any way, and each atheist has a different view of the world. Of course like any group of people there will always be individuals which can act innapropriately. For atheist you just have to look at the suppression of religion in communist countries. |
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| Obviously |
| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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There's nothing wrong with how atheists act in critique against religion. It is as though religion feels it is perfect, and therefore need no fixing or critique. I am very much for freedom of speech, and whenever someone speaks their mind and someone gets hurt, it's not the fault of the one who spoke his mind, but the people who reacted irrational and violent against what the speaker said.
Atheists don't violently express what they think and mean, they express their concerns and distaste for the oppressive and dangerous form of religion. It's weird how Dawkins, Hitchens and Harris has been called "militant", as if their concerns and critique against religion is somehow harmful, ignorant and violent. It is not. Critique is a good thing, and when it works and people recognize their flaws, we have progress.
There's been so many misunderstandings as to what "militant" atheism is.
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“After Darwin, God's role changes from being the designer of all creatures, great and small, to being the designer of the laws of nature, from which natural selection can unfold, to being just perhaps the chooser of the laws.”
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| Harold14370 |
| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Oh boy. Another atheism missionary thread. |
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| 425 Chaotic Requisition |
| Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 4:33 am Post subject: |
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The Doctor
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Tell me about it. When will people just let things be?
Obviously, how do you deduce that every single religious person think that it is perfect? And that they are arroganrt Orelander? Do you have any idea that religious people see atheists in the same light?
I say this because I hold its every young atheists problem. You've had an experience in your own life where religion has been in effect where you've been hurt. Or you are anti-conforming, or maybe just maybe, you can let go.
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| Obviously |
| Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 4:53 am Post subject: |
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| 425 Chaotic Requisition wrote: |
Tell me about it. When will people just let things be?
Obviously, how do you deduce that every single religious person think that it is perfect? And that they are arroganrt Orelander? Do you have any idea that religious people see atheists in the same light?
I say this because I hold its every young atheists problem. You've had an experience in your own life where religion has been in effect where you've been hurt. Or you are anti-conforming, or maybe just maybe, you can let go. |
Most people react in awe because of atheistic critique against religion, even atheists themselves. It has been almost tradition to respect religion and try not to speak negative about it.
Your deduction of me having some personal issue against religion, or a grudge, is faulty. My reasons for critique against religion are merely objective and out of concern. History has proven idealistic thinking to be a road to bloodbath and horror. Though I would consider my efforts of trying to make people aware of this is probably futile, I wouldn't consider them wasted.
_________________
“After Darwin, God's role changes from being the designer of all creatures, great and small, to being the designer of the laws of nature, from which natural selection can unfold, to being just perhaps the chooser of the laws.”
~ Daniel C. Dennett |
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| Pendragon |
| Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 5:09 am Post subject: |
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| 425 Chaotic Requisition wrote: |
But... (and I never say but, I say however, so that means this is my personal opinion). Religious believers look at atheists and think the same way, that they do not want atheists to 'go to hell', or 'be punished'. Atheists want to help religious people from harm, and religious people want to help atheists from harm. And that harm is equally as painful to see on both sides.
Both parties feel the same reality to themselves, the same truths. They are just opposite. Do you understand what I mean? |
Good point, it makes sense.
My reply would be that the harm of religion is common and visable, it happens every day. Today millions of people hate eachother because of religion, millions more fear eachother. Today dozens of conflicts worldwide are unsolvable, and it's not unreasonable to claim that religion is the main factor behind that. For example Israeli's and Palestinians both regard the temple mount as sacred and unreplacable, neither party is allowed by their religion to compromise on it. If both parties were atheist then I guess at some point one side would offer "build me a new temple mount somewhere and compensate me with cash, then we can make a deal". Religion stands in the way of peace.
And I guess today dozens of people sold their car to throw money at the imposters of Scientology.
Compare that with the metaphysical claim that atheists will miss out on heaven. Which heaven, where is it, can you prove me that it exists? If not then it's a bit like going from door to door to warn people to wear tin foils on their head, otherwise the mindreaders will get you. Which mindreaders, how, why, proof? They probably have the best intentions too, but in practise I wouldn't say tin foil hats make a big contribution to humanity 
| Obviously wrote: |
There's nothing wrong with how atheists act in critique against religion. It is as though religion feels it is perfect, and therefore need no fixing or critique. I am very much for freedom of speech, and whenever someone speaks their mind and someone gets hurt, it's not the fault of the one who spoke his mind, but the people who reacted irrational and violent against what the speaker said.
Atheists don't violently express what they think and mean, they express their concerns and distaste for the oppressive and dangerous form of religion. It's weird how Dawkins, Hitchens and Harris has been called "militant", as if their concerns and critique against religion is somehow harmful, ignorant and violent. It is not. Critique is a good thing, and when it works and people recognize their flaws, we have progress.
There's been so many misunderstandings as to what "militant" atheism is. |
I completely agree.
Yea 'militant atheist' is a very overused term. We don't have books that tell us our duty is to go out and convert, peaceful or otherwise. Many religions have precisely that, and often much more (like rules that tell them it's ok to mistreat atheists).
Communists have their books, but then communists are communists. Most of them are atheist as well, but that doesn't mean atheism has a relation with communism. It's not as if Marx invented atheism. It was invented say two millennia before Marx, but more importantly: most atheists invent it themselves. And even more important: most atheists never invent atheism, they just don't come up with gods, angels and fairies in the first place. |
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| Harold14370 |
| Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 5:59 am Post subject: |
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| Pendragon wrote: |
I completely agree.
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"Amen" is the word, Brother Pendragon. |
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| 425 Chaotic Requisition |
| Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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The Doctor
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| Quote: |
| Compare that with the metaphysical claim that atheists will miss out on heaven. Which heaven, where is it, can you prove me that it exists? |
I see whtat you mean completley. But to religious believers it exists. So their concern for you is the same because their reality is the same as yours but opposite. They cannot be persuaded by your rationality, and you not by theirs either.
Unfortuantley for us all, where you ask for proof is where the relation breaks down and where the age old argument between religion and atheism begins.
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"There is no knowledge, that is not power" - Ralph Waldo Emerson. |
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| Obviously |
| Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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| 425 Chaotic Requisition wrote: |
| I see whtat you mean completley. But to religious believers it exists. So their concern for you is the same because their reality is the same as yours but opposite. They cannot be persuaded by your rationality, and you not by theirs either. |
The ancient difference of fiction and reality. Concern without rational basis is closer to madness than it is to reason. You can go around with concerns for all kinds of unproven claims, or concern yourself with things that matter; this life, the choices you make and the things you know are real.
I can emphesize with the religious reason for concern, but it is pointless. Nothing's clear in the world of fiction, therefore it's meaningless to concern yourself with things you don't know (Gods will, judgement and hellfire). Concern yourself with what is present and right in front of you, because that is what matters at the moment.
_________________
“After Darwin, God's role changes from being the designer of all creatures, great and small, to being the designer of the laws of nature, from which natural selection can unfold, to being just perhaps the chooser of the laws.”
~ Daniel C. Dennett |
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| Jinn |
| Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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I think one of the reasons atheists feel the need to debate religion is that we get defensive in a sense. I actually have written down a couple of verses from the bible that basically state, because i am a blasphemer, that 1. I will go to hell and there is no hope of forgiveness 2. i am an Antichrist 3. If i try to tempt anyone to become blasphemers i should be stoned to death.
So i think that atheists can't leave believers alone because believers cant leave atheists alone... |
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