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| Obviously |
 Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:48 pm Post subject: Water Vapor |
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Forum Professor
Joined: 14 Aug 2007
Posts: 1211
Location: Norway
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Intro:
My argument here rests probably on a shaky foundation, but it can be summed up in one word: Equilibrium.
As you can decipher from the topic title, I've been thinking about water vapor. I must admit that my knowledge within climate change is quite limited, but let's get to the argument in detail.
Argument:
I have the suspicion that when temerature goes up, and more water evaporates and becomes water vapor, more light is blocked by the water vapor, and the climate reaches equilibrium. Temperature goes down again and the process of equilibrium repeats.
Problems:
The reason I think this rests on a shaky foundation is because I don't know how much light the water vapor deflects and I also don't consider other greenhouse gasses. However, I consider the argument that the climate always will always reach a point of equilibrium, whether humans contribute with extra CO2 or not, probable. Though with my limited knowledge I'm unsure.
I would love to get critique against this idea, considering all the things I don't know and have not included.
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"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms."
-- Albert Einstein
"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings."
-- Albert Einstein |
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| Ophiolite |
| Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 1:49 am Post subject: |
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Forum Radioactive Isotope
Joined: 25 Jul 2005
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The role of water vapour is one that is fully recognised by climatologists and included within their models.
I suggest, as a starting point, exhausting the resources on the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.
http://www.ipcc.ch/
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The Universe is not only weirder than we imagine it is weirder than we can imagine. J.B.S.Haldane. |
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| Selene |
| Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 2:10 am Post subject: |
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Banned
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Location: I live in Bertrand Russells teapot!
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Where did the water come from in the first place?
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| Obviously |
| Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 3:23 am Post subject: |
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Forum Professor
Joined: 14 Aug 2007
Posts: 1211
Location: Norway
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| Ophiolite wrote: |
The role of water vapour is one that is fully recognised by climatologists and included within their models.
I suggest, as a starting point, exhausting the resources on the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.
http://www.ipcc.ch/ |
I understand IPCC has gotten a lot of critique. It will take a long time to go through their report though 
_________________
"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms."
-- Albert Einstein
"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings."
-- Albert Einstein |
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| Ophiolite |
| Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 3:36 am Post subject: |
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Forum Radioactive Isotope
Joined: 25 Jul 2005
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| Obviously wrote: |
| I understand IPCC has gotten a lot of critique. |
From the Bush administration. From certain oil companies. From the short sighted, the conspiracy merchants and the congenitally dumb.
They have also got a Nobel Prize. If any criticism can rightly be levelled at them it is that they have watered down their concerns and recommendations in order to include the most optimistic researchers.
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The Universe is not only weirder than we imagine it is weirder than we can imagine. J.B.S.Haldane. |
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| Obviously |
| Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 4:45 am Post subject: |
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Forum Professor
Joined: 14 Aug 2007
Posts: 1211
Location: Norway
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| Ophiolite wrote: |
| Obviously wrote: |
| I understand IPCC has gotten a lot of critique. |
From the Bush administration. From certain oil companies. From the short sighted, the conspiracy merchants and the congenitally dumb.
They have also got a Nobel Prize. If any criticism can rightly be levelled at them it is that they have watered down their concerns and recommendations in order to include the most optimistic researchers. |
Ah, well in that case... 
_________________
"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms."
-- Albert Einstein
"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings."
-- Albert Einstein |
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| Bunbury |
| Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 6:31 am Post subject: |
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Forum Ph.D.
Joined: 26 Sep 2007
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| You might also look in realclimate.org. They have some discussions on water vapor that are a bit more accessible than the IPCC reports. |
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| Cosmo |
| Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 6:57 am Post subject: |
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Forum Ph.D.
Joined: 22 Nov 2007
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| Selene wrote: |
| Where did the water come from in the first place? |
Selene
Water is everywhere in the universe where there are stars.
The 'solar' eruptions are chemical explosions of hydrogen and oxygen. The byproduct is water.
There are large numbers of impacting objects (mainly comets) on the Sun that contain oxides of different elements.
In the intense heat, the oxides separate to release the oxygen. Result? A powerful explosion that results in water vapor plus other particles and elemental ions.
The current science teaches that these eruptions are caused by magnetic energy field concentrations.
I refute that.
Cosmo |
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| Ophiolite |
| Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 7:19 am Post subject: |
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Forum Radioactive Isotope
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| Cosmo wrote: |
Water is everywhere in the universe where there are stars.
The 'solar' eruptions are chemical explosions of hydrogen and oxygen. The byproduct is water.
The current science teaches that these eruptions are caused by magnetic energy field concentrations.
I refute that.
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Cosmo, this is not the pseudoscience section. Thank you for stating clearly that this hypothesis is not what science holds to be true, but let's keep the posts relevant to the thread topic. Discuss your own theories within pseudoscience if you wish, or within a separate thread in Earth science if you believe you can offer up enough supporting evidence. Otherwise lets try to keep it tight. Thanks.
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The Universe is not only weirder than we imagine it is weirder than we can imagine. J.B.S.Haldane. |
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| Selene |
| Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 7:57 am Post subject: |
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Banned
Joined: 04 Feb 2008
Posts: 1060
Location: I live in Bertrand Russells teapot!
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| Cosmo wrote: |
| Selene wrote: |
| Where did the water come from in the first place? |
Selene
Water is everywhere in the universe where there are stars.
The 'solar' eruptions are chemical explosions of hydrogen and oxygen. The byproduct is water.
There are large numbers of impacting objects (mainly comets) on the Sun that contain oxides of different elements.
In the intense heat, the oxides separate to release the oxygen. Result? A powerful explosion that results in water vapor plus other particles and elemental ions.
The current science teaches that these eruptions are caused by magnetic energy field concentrations.
I refute that.
Cosmo |
Thank you Cosmo
For taking the time to explain where water comes from.
It is something i have often wondered about.
Ophiolite does seem to like the colour red, but then so do bulls as the saying goes....
Anyway, apparently stars contain oxygen and the hydrogen exists in space. When the star explodes and both gases mingle in the chill of space they fuse, so this person says:
http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=195
So does that mean water droplets are floating about in space?
Perhaps we should start a new thread and save certain people having high blood pressure?
All the best
Selene
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| sunshinewarrior |
| Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 9:02 am Post subject: |
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Joined: 26 Sep 2007
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| Selene wrote: |
So does that mean water droplets are floating about in space?
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Possibly, but more likely, given the hardness of the vacuum in outer space, any surface tension or attraction between the molecules will be unable to hold them together and (unless they accumulate amongst hard or hard/wet objects like asteroids and comets) they will therefore be more like individual molecules of water floating around. |
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| Harold14370 |
| Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 9:38 am Post subject: |
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Forum Professor
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 1675
Location: Pennsylvania
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| sunshinewarrio wrote: |
| Selene wrote: |
So does that mean water droplets are floating about in space?
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Possibly, but more likely, given the hardness of the vacuum in outer space, any surface tension or attraction between the molecules will be unable to hold them together and (unless they accumulate amongst hard or hard/wet objects like asteroids and comets) they will therefore be more like individual molecules of water floating around. |
I'm not sure I understand this, Shanks. What forces in outer space will be pulling apart the ice crystals? |
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| Bunbury |
| Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 9:54 am Post subject: |
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Forum Ph.D.
Joined: 26 Sep 2007
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| Why would they clump together in the first place? |
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| sunshinewarrior |
| Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 11:12 am Post subject: |
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Joined: 26 Sep 2007
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| Harold14370 wrote: |
| sunshinewarrio wrote: |
| Selene wrote: |
So does that mean water droplets are floating about in space?
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Possibly, but more likely, given the hardness of the vacuum in outer space, any surface tension or attraction between the molecules will be unable to hold them together and (unless they accumulate amongst hard or hard/wet objects like asteroids and comets) they will therefore be more like individual molecules of water floating around. |
I'm not sure I understand this, Shanks. What forces in outer space will be pulling apart the ice crystals? |
Your physics is a darn sight sharper than mine, Harold. I suppose I made the assumption that the kinetic energy of the molecules, low though it might be, would force them apart were there not the pressure of surrounding molecules (as is usual in conditions on earth) preventing them from doing so.
There's also Bunbury's point - in space it's pretty hard for two molecules to find each other: depends upon the molecules' provenance I suppose.
What are your thoughts then? |
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| Harold14370 |
| Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 11:33 am Post subject: |
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Forum Professor
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 1675
Location: Pennsylvania
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| sunshinewarrio wrote: |
| Harold14370 wrote: |
| sunshinewarrio wrote: |
| Selene wrote: |
So does that mean water droplets are floating about in space?
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Possibly, but more likely, given the hardness of the vacuum in outer space, any surface tension or attraction between the molecules will be unable to hold them together and (unless they accumulate amongst hard or hard/wet objects like asteroids and comets) they will therefore be more like individual molecules of water floating around. |
I'm not sure I understand this, Shanks. What forces in outer space will be pulling apart the ice crystals? |
Your physics is a darn sight sharper than mine, Harold. I suppose I made the assumption that the kinetic energy of the molecules, low though it might be, would force them apart were there not the pressure of surrounding molecules (as is usual in conditions on earth) preventing them from doing so.
There's also Bunbury's point - in space it's pretty hard for two molecules to find each other: depends upon the molecules' provenance I suppose.
What are your thoughts then? |
I hadn't thought about it much. I guess it might tend to evaporate or sublimate if it had any thermal energy, but it's pretty cold out there too. You could be right. |
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