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| Heliopolis |
 Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 6:40 am Post subject: Race and IQ |
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Forum Freshman
Joined: 09 May 2008
Posts: 76
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The geneticist James Watson ( and good friend of Richard Dawkins)
claimed that black people have lower IQs than others and that there
may even be genetic evidence to find the cause of this.
He is still forthcoming with the evidence.
Of course, Dr Watson is yet another racist fascist who probably
supported apartheid in the colonial area.
But there is evidence that black people in Europe and America
do actually have lower IQs and educational performances ( only
marginally though).
But, having been consistently outperformed at university by
fellow students from Nigeria ( certainly in Maths), I consider it to
be a cultural problem that is linked to the legacy of slavery.
Blacks in America and people of Caribbean descent in Europe
were subjected to physical and menial work for centuries.
As such, I think that ,subsconsciously, they have assumed
that their "salvation" is through physical ( eg sport) or
artistic means ( like blues, hipop music). As IQ does not
measure such abilities they naturally do worse in the
tests.
As such, many black kids in the West grow up disinterested
in the sciences and more in sport and music. In Africa, those
kids who can afford to get an education tend to be more
interested in becoming doctors and engineers....they will
thus have higher IQs.
We also think that Chinese and Indian people are smart.
But name one Chinese scientist or mathematician of
any note? There are two easy reasons:
1) Chinese and Indian people make up a lot of the world's
population: you expect to find some brainy people in
such a large base. Those that come to the West tend to
be the clever ones.
2) Both cultures places massive emphasis on education.
study study study. Children are forced to do well at
school by over-ambitious parents.
It is also amusing that amongst Indians, the ones in
the South are regarded as much more intelligent that
the people from the North: however, it is also not
surprising that the educational system in the South
are so much better. |
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| UKDutyPaid |
| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 9:50 am Post subject: |
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Posts: 79
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I'm guessing your point is that it isn't genetic, but rather cultural. Which I'm inclined to agree with. However, there may be truth in the genetic argument, but likely it is only a tiny variance, that could only make a difference if society decided it should.
But just because someone suggests something that may show a difference between races, doesn't mean they are inherantly fascist or racist. Racism only comes into it when you decide how the information should affect, or not, the world.
also...
| Quote: |
But name one Chinese scientist or mathematician of
any note? |
are you being serious? |
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| Pendragon |
| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 11:23 am Post subject: |
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If you interpret the word 'cultural differences' in a broad sense then I tend to agree as well (or better: socio-cultural differences).
I think intelligence is to a very large extent linked to 'nurture': do parents stimulate learning, are there sources of information available to the young child, what quality of education is available? For example studies persistently show that it's of great importance that parents read books and tell stories to their young children. An illiterate mother, or parents who just don't care about books and stories, can put a child at a disadvantage very early in life. That's just one small example, if you add it all up it could become quite significant.
I think Africa would have great potential if it manages to solve it's literacy and education problems. India, China and other Asian countries suffer poverty as well, but they still seem to allocate more of their scarce resources to education (maybe someone could find statistics for that). |
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| Heliopolis |
| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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Forum Freshman
Joined: 09 May 2008
Posts: 76
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| UKDutyPaid wrote: |
I'm guessing your point is that it isn't genetic, but rather cultural. Which I'm inclined to agree with. However, there may be truth in the genetic argument, but likely it is only a tiny variance, that could only make a difference if society decided it should.
But just because someone suggests something that may show a difference between races, doesn't mean they are inherantly fascist or racist. Racism only comes into it when you decide how the information should affect, or not, the world.
also...
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But name one Chinese scientist or mathematician of
any note? |
are you being serious? |
What I meant was that , sure, there are Chinese scientists
out there but that ,as a race, they have not produced any
great scientist of note like a Newton or an Einstein.
In fact, in recent times only three countries, Britain, France
and America have produced scientists of any consequence. |
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| i_feel_tiredsleepy |
| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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Forum Bachelors Degree
Joined: 21 Mar 2008
Posts: 402
Location: Montreal
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| Quote: |
What I meant was that , sure, there are Chinese scientists
out there but that ,as a race, they have not produced any
great scientist of note like a Newton or an Einstein.
In fact, in recent times only three countries, Britain, France
and America have produced scientists of any consequence. |
I would include Russia and Germany in that list... The fact is that a country must be an industrial power before it can actually have the funds to finance proper research and innovation. I doubt we will ever see a "star" scientist ever again because of the nature of research today. Everyones work is built on the work of others and we just remember the ones who are famous.
All I can say though is that if I look at any scientific journal at least half of the publications are by asian scientist. |
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| Pendragon |
| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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Moderator
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| i_feel_tiredsleepy wrote: |
All I can say though is that if I look at any scientific journal at least half of the publications are by asian scientist. |
I'm in social science, and at least a quarter or a third of the publications I encounter are by asian scientists. So they're certainly making a contribution to science. And who knows, maybe China will develop the first fusion reactor. They certainly seem to have big plans for that. |
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| UKDutyPaid |
| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Heliopolis |
| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 09 May 2008
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Not really...what gunpowder?
The best scientists of the ancient world were Greek
Of the medieval period the best were Muslims. |
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| UKDutyPaid |
| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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I would wager that gunpowder has had as great an affect on the world as relativity.
But gunpowder aside, that was just one example. I think you need to spread your net wider, to state that neither country have ever produced great scientists is just naive.
Here's another little example.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian/Hindu_inventions |
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| BumFluff |
| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 06 Mar 2008
Posts: 198
Location: Canada
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Here is a page for the history of mathematics in China http://aleph0.clarku.edu/~djoyce/mathhist/china.html
I'm almost positive that you'll find many many influential people in China in other studies as well. The Ancient Chinese invented gunpowder, the compass, paper and printing. At one time the Chinese were at the forefront of Scientific thought.
I'll give a short blurb from the wikipedia page about why the Chinese didn't advance as fast as Europe did and why their was stagnation in their scientific developement:
One question that has been the subject of debate among historians has been why China did not develop a scientific revolution and why Chinese technology fell behind that of Europe. Many hypotheses have been proposed ranging from the cultural to the political and economic. Nathan Sivin has argued that China indeed had a scientific revolution in the 17th century and that we are still far from understanding the scientific revolutions of the West and China in all their political, economic and social ramifications. John K. Fairbank argued that the Chinese political system was hostile to scientific progress.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_science_and_technology_in_China
As you can see by reading the link above scientific thought in China was at the forefront of the worlds advancment but the political climate in China didn't allow it to procede. There were a great many people that were as advanced as the top scientists today in thinking. They just weren't given the same opportunities due to the political climate.
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"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt" - Bertrand Russell |
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| Pong |
| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 12:25 am Post subject: Re: Race and IQ |
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Joined: 08 Apr 2008
Posts: 358
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| Heliopolis wrote: |
| (certain) people have lower IQs than others and that there may even be genetic evidence to find the cause of this. |
So some people are genetically flawed/weak/inferior. I think this true. Perhaps it is clearer to see with the conviction that nobody may act accordingly, but rather on the contrary.  |
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| Cat1981(England) |
| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 9:53 am Post subject: |
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Joined: 09 Sep 2006
Posts: 827
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In defence of Dr Watson he later said this..... (taken from wiki)
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On October 19th, Watson issued an apology, stating that he was "mortified" and "cannot understand how I could have said what I am quoted as having said."[54][55] He also claimed to
understand why people, reading those words, have reacted in the ways they have ... To all those who have drawn the inference from my words that Africa, as a continent, is somehow genetically inferior, I can only apologize unreservedly. That is not what I meant. More importantly from my point of view, there is no scientific basis for such a belief.[56]
Saying he wanted to clarify his position, Watson said
... we do not yet adequately understand the way in which the different environments in the world have selected over time the genes which determine our capacity to do different things,...
... the overwhelming desire of society today is to assume that equal powers of reason are a universal heritage of humanity....
... it may well be. But simply wanting this to be the case is not enough. This is not science. To question this is not to give in to racism. This is not a discussion about superiority or inferiority, it is about seeking to understand differences, about why some of us are great musicians and others great engineers. |
It is obviously wrong to say that any race is generally intellectually inferior or superior compared to any other without solid evidence. The chances are though that there will be some small differences generally (not individually) between races. Of course the influence of a culture or sub-culture is likely to have a far greater effect and the influence on a persons intelligence though their upbringing will probable supersede either of the above anyway, so there would still be no justification for racism even if a lower general level of intellect was found for any particular race.
As for the technological big dick competition, the scientific and technological advancements made by Europe/the west far outway those made by the Chinese, Indian, Islamic or African worlds, especially when you consider the size of the Chinese or Indian populations historically. For example around the time of christ over half the worlds population lived in China alone.
On a side note, some people consider the Phaistos Disc to be the earliest examples of movable type printing. The Greeks.
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You may be an idiot, but that doesn't mean you need to act like one. My art teacher. |
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| Cosmo |
| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 6:25 am Post subject: |
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Joined: 22 Nov 2007
Posts: 361
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To All
This is just another example of 'male white chauvinism' as the OT teaches with the lion as the Suns representative.
The Moon as representing the females and the 'darkies' as inferior is how the OT portrays this issue.
So it gets down to a conlict between 'fangs and claws' as superior because they can kill the 'hands' (Apes).
So 'fangs and claws' also representing themselves as brains, use 'hands' for serving themselves because of this superiority.
Well, in conclusion, I say that our brains are in our HANDS that create all this material wealth that FaC's craves.
Besides, most people that achieve a degree of subsistence, do not crave any more of anything since they are satisfied with just living.
So that is the way it is.
BTW, the current industrial revolution started from a small invention by
the African Pygmies and their use of a 'tube' to propel a dart.
So the Romans decided that 'black powder' would be a better substitute for propelling a bullet instead of the dart.
Cosmo
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