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| free radical |
 Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 4:41 pm Post subject: Pre Clovis DNA in Oregon |
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Forum Masters Degree
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 503
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Time to re-think the migration to the Americas.
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Fossilised faeces found in a US cave may help solve the riddle of when and how humans came to the Americas.
The samples date back just over 14,000 years, before the time of the Clovis culture.
Clovis people dominated North and Central America around 13,000 years ago, and whether any groups came before them has been controversial.
In the journal Science, the researchers describe how their conclusion hinged on modern genetic analysis.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7329505.stm
Also:
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2008-04/uoo-rlb033108.php |
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| Bunbury |
| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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Forum Ph.D.
Joined: 26 Sep 2007
Posts: 742
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| Exciting news. My archaeologist bro-in-law has believed there were pre-Clovis migrations for years but has never had the evidence. He'll be very interested. |
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| free radical |
| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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Forum Masters Degree
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 503
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| Bunbury wrote: |
| Exciting news. My archaeologist bro-in-law has believed there were pre-Clovis migrations for years but has never had the evidence. |
Perhaps he wasn't examining enough faecal samples. |
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| Bunbury |
| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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Forum Ph.D.
Joined: 26 Sep 2007
Posts: 742
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| True, he's only been going through the motions. |
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| free radical |
| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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Forum Masters Degree
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 503
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| That's well enough, I suppose, so long as he doesn't poo poo the new findings. |
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| marnixR |
| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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Forum Cosmic Wizard
Joined: 10 Apr 2007
Posts: 2398
Location: Cardiff, Wales
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| free radical wrote: |
| That's well enough, I suppose, so long as he doesn't poo poo the new findings. |
no, leave that up to the archaeo-scathologists
_________________
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biology without evolution is but stamp collecting |
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| sunshinewarrior |
| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 5:56 am Post subject: |
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Forum Ph.D.
Joined: 26 Sep 2007
Posts: 974
Location: London
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| marnixR wrote: |
| free radical wrote: |
| That's well enough, I suppose, so long as he doesn't poo poo the new findings. |
no, leave that up to the archaeo-scathologists |
coprologists?
But even so, regarding the OP, how far back will this push the first arrival of people in the New World? To 12000 bc? |
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| Bunbury |
| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 6:15 am Post subject: |
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Forum Ph.D.
Joined: 26 Sep 2007
Posts: 742
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| Quote: |
| But even so, regarding the OP, how far back will this push the first arrival of people in the New World? To 12000 bc? |
No doubt this find will spur new excavations to find out when the first flush of immigration occurred. |
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| Bunbury |
| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 8:48 am Post subject: |
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Forum Ph.D.
Joined: 26 Sep 2007
Posts: 742
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I got hold of a copy of the Science article. There are some interesting tidbits that don't appear in the press releases, such as this (pardon my editing, hope to not violate copyright policy here):
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| ...leading pre-Clovis skeptics ...say(s) that the coprolites do not make an airtight case for pre-Clovis occupation. ... if these were actually canid rather than human coprolites, some researchers say, ... the DNA could be from the urine of humans who ventured into the caves long after the coprolites were deposited. |
but
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| Team members ...tested for and found human proteins in three coprolites, including two dated to about 14,000 years ago. “This nongenetic test requires more human protein than can be expected from urination...People eat canines, canines eat people, and canines eat human feces. Any way you cut the poop, people and dogs would have to be at the site within days of each other 14,000 years ago.” |
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| sunshinewarrior |
| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:26 am Post subject: |
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Forum Ph.D.
Joined: 26 Sep 2007
Posts: 974
Location: London
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| Bunbury wrote: |
but
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| Team members ...tested for and found human proteins in three coprolites, including two dated to about 14,000 years ago. “This nongenetic test requires more human protein than can be expected from urination...People eat canines, canines eat people, and canines eat human feces. Any way you cut the poop, people and dogs would have to be at the site within days of each other 14,000 years ago.” |
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Yeah. From reading the article, I'm with this interpretation (conditionally).
Whilst I like the idea of Clovis being the first (if nothing else at least we know who was first), I don't believe it will upset any of the theories of human migration (out of Africa, across the Bering Strait etc), if first settlement in the Americas is pushed back by a couple of millennia. |
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| free radical |
| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 9:30 am Post subject: |
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Forum Masters Degree
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 503
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Some independent data to substantiate the date:
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The seaweed samples were directly dated between 14,220 to 13,980 years ago, confirming that the upper layer of the site, labeled Monte Verde II, was occupied more than 1,000 years earlier than any other reliably dated human settlements in the Americas.
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http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/05/080508143324.htm |
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| CShark |
| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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Forum Sophomore
Joined: 08 May 2008
Posts: 169
Location: East Coast of Canada
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| Bunbury wrote: |
| Quote: |
| But even so, regarding the OP, how far back will this push the first arrival of people in the New World? To 12000 bc? |
No doubt this find will spur new excavations to find out when the first flush of immigration occurred. |
Oohh...that was a crappy thing to say. |
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