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	Science Forum Forum Index » Philosophy  » Nothing is Impossible    Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next  Nothing is Impossible « View previous topic :: View next topic »  Author Message korben Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:16 am    Post subject: Nothing is Impossible Banned Joined: 25 Jan 2010 Posts: 110 "Nothing is Impossible." Does this saying have meaning? No, I'm not saying that nothing is impossible as in everything is possible. I'm asking, is the idea of nothing actually impossible? For example, The Big Bang Theory suggests that something spawns from nothing. If there are no dice to roll (nothing), how does the possibility of reality (something) even have a chance? _________________ [insert a quote here] Back to top Ophiolite Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:32 am    Post subject: Re: Nothing is Impossible Time Lord Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 6193 Location: Scotland korben wrote: "Nothing is Impossible." Does this saying have meaning? Yes, but it is not meant to be taken literally. It refers more to people realising their dreams than to physical laws. It urges us to contemplate what we want to achieve then to strive towards it. It does not encourage us to think that we can jump of a building and fly unaided, or construct a perpetual motion machine, or travel faster than light. Your clarification wasn't unambiguous, at least for me. You seem to say this isn't what you wanted to speak about, but rather about the idea of 'nothing'. If that is the case I think using the phrase 'nothing is impossible' is confusing and misleading. On the Big Bang theory, it does not claim that the universe arose from nothing. BBT says nothing (pun intended) about what came before. So, I'm left slightly bewildered about what you wanted to say. _________________ The Universe is not only weirder than we imagine it is weirder than we can imagine. J.B.S.Haldane. Back to top inow Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:47 am    Post subject: Forum Professor Joined: 04 Oct 2009 Posts: 1795 Location: Austin, TX Nothing is impossible, you say? Find me a rational square root of the number 2. I've just offered proof of the false nature of your axiom (thanks to John_C for pointing this out to me in such a simple and concise way). _________________ iNow ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~ Pale Blue Dot ~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan Last edited by inow on Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:47 am; edited 1 time in total Back to top korben Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:47 am    Post subject: Banned Joined: 25 Jan 2010 Posts: 110 Sorry, I didn't intend to confuse or mislead you. I meant the phrase "Nothing is Impossible" as a way of discussing the idea that nothing is indeed not possible. I'm confused with the idea that "nothing" could even exist prior to The Big Bang (if that occurred). I don't believe The Big Bang Theory has ever said that "something" existed prior, maybe I am wrong. I see the idea of The Big Bang Theory as the sudden instant that reality is born (molecules/atoms/space/time/ect.). I'm just looking for some understanding as to how the birth of our universe happened with the explanation of The Big Bang Theory. _________________ [insert a quote here] Back to top inow Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:49 am    Post subject: Forum Professor Joined: 04 Oct 2009 Posts: 1795 Location: Austin, TX Ah... That clarifies. Thanks, korben. There are a few different ideas. The cosmologists I've read don't seem to think everything started with the BB, just that our current models and maths break down at that point. There is a really awesome site that puts some of the more accepted ideas into terms everyone can understand. You might enjoy checking it out, and exploring some of the articles. A tale of two big bangs is a really nice one, but they're all good. http://www.aei.mpg.de/einsteinOnline/en/spotlights/cosmology/index.html _________________ iNow ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~ Pale Blue Dot ~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan Back to top korben Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:12 am    Post subject: Banned Joined: 25 Jan 2010 Posts: 110 Thanks, I will give this site a look and see if it helps me with some of my questions. I am having so much trouble with the idea of nothing giving birth to something. It doesn't make sense. If the universe started with mixtures of gases or whatever, I could always keep begging the question of . . Where or how did those gases come into existence? It seems as if there is no end. If I decide to start at nothing . . I can't grasp the idea of nothing giving birth to something (atoms/molecules/gases/ect.) for no apparant reason. _________________ [insert a quote here] Back to top inow Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:27 am    Post subject: Forum Professor Joined: 04 Oct 2009 Posts: 1795 Location: Austin, TX I understand. It's not an easy concept to grasp, and it's certainly not intuitive. If you've got an hour, I highly suggest you watch the discussion linked below: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo&feature=player_embedded Quote: Lawrence Krauss gives a talk on our current picture of the universe, how it will end, and how it could have come from nothing. Krauss is the author of many bestselling books on Physics and Cosmology, including "The Physics of Star Trek." Krauss is a very gifted speaker and listening to him might illuminate some of the areas giving you difficulty. _________________ iNow ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~ Pale Blue Dot ~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan Back to top korben Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:46 pm    Post subject: Banned Joined: 25 Jan 2010 Posts: 110 I watched the entire video, very interesting. The concept is that nothing isn't nothing, but actually something. I'll quote him, "Nothing is really a boiling bubbling brew of virtual particles that are popping in and out of existence in a time scale so short that you can't see them." I could still state the idea that particles popping in and out of existence is obviously something and not nothing, but probably the best explanation i've seen so far. It gives me the idea that prior to The Big Bang there was always something, no matter how small or short lived it's time was. I guess the bigger question is, how much time must something exist for it to be considered something? _________________ [insert a quote here] Back to top sunshinewarrior Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:36 am    Post subject: Moderator Joined: 26 Sep 2007 Posts: 1574 Location: London korben wrote: I watched the entire video, very interesting. The concept is that nothing isn't nothing, but actually something. I'll quote him, "Nothing is really a boiling bubbling brew of virtual particles that are popping in and out of existence in a time scale so short that you can't see them." I could still state the idea that particles popping in and out of existence is obviously something and not nothing, but probably the best explanation i've seen so far. It gives me the idea that prior to The Big Bang there was always something, no matter how small or short lived it's time was. I guess the bigger question is, how much time must something exist for it to be considered something? Philosophically speaking, 'nothing' is not the same as the nothing (=vacuum) about which physicists speak. From a definitional point of view, true 'nothing' must have no characteristics whatsoever (it must be the existential equivalent of zero in mathematics). Given this, either there are infinite nothings or pockets of nothings, all sublimely not interacting with any somethings, and all identical (they cannot even have the characteristic of location in space or time) which means they're actually the same nothing... or else it is logically impossible for there to be 'nothing', which then answers the question of why there is something rather than nothing... Not easy, this stuff. Back to top Ophiolite Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:25 am    Post subject: Time Lord Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 6193 Location: Scotland sunshinewarrior wrote: Not easy, this stuff. Au contraire. There is nothing to it. _________________ The Universe is not only weirder than we imagine it is weirder than we can imagine. J.B.S.Haldane. Back to top sunshinewarrior Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:00 am    Post subject: Moderator Joined: 26 Sep 2007 Posts: 1574 Location: London Ophiolite wrote: sunshinewarrior wrote: Not easy, this stuff. Au contraire. There is nothing to it. Heh! Back to top korben Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:14 am    Post subject: Banned Joined: 25 Jan 2010 Posts: 110 sunshinewarrior wrote: Philosophically speaking, 'nothing' is not the same as the nothing (=vacuum) about which physicists speak. From a definitional point of view, true 'nothing' must have no characteristics whatsoever (it must be the existential equivalent of zero in mathematics). Given this, either there are infinite nothings or pockets of nothings, all sublimely not interacting with any somethings, and all identical (they cannot even have the characteristic of location in space or time) which means they're actually the same nothing... or else it is logically impossible for there to be 'nothing', which then answers the question of why there is something rather than nothing... Not easy, this stuff. With that said, do you believe that nothing is nonexistent? It seems impossible to have nothing. It doesn't appear logical (forgive me if that is not the right word to use) to say nothing is there because nothing is indeed not there. In my opinion, nothing is impossible because you can't have nothing. For example, 0 is like a balance between +1 and -1 cancelling eachother out, but 0 does not have a property of either positive or negative. It's like saying I travelled 0ft. when if you actually travelled somewhere you couldn't move 0ft. Maybe this is the wrong analogy, but you understand what i'm poking at. Do you believe nothing is even possible? _________________ [insert a quote here] Back to top inow Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:09 pm    Post subject: Forum Professor Joined: 04 Oct 2009 Posts: 1795 Location: Austin, TX I've often (in the past) contemplated the idea that the "nothing concept" is a bit of a paradox... The moment you describe it, it becomes something... and hence is no longer nothing. Is that the type of idea you're trying to convey? _________________ iNow ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~ Pale Blue Dot ~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan Back to top korben Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:18 pm    Post subject: Banned Joined: 25 Jan 2010 Posts: 110 inow wrote: I've often (in the past) contemplated the idea that the "nothing concept" is a bit of a paradox... The moment you describe it, it becomes something... and hence is no longer nothing. Is that the type of idea you're trying to convey? Exactly. It seems impossible though because nothing is nothing, it's nonexistent. _________________ [insert a quote here] Back to top sunshinewarrior Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:55 pm    Post subject: Moderator Joined: 26 Sep 2007 Posts: 1574 Location: London korben, I think we're saying much the same thing. To 'exist', something must have characteristics. By definition, true 'nothing' can have no characteristics. Ergo no true 'nothing' can 'exist'. But this could just be the prejudice of thinking 'somethings'... 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