| |
  |
|
| Mathimatically challeneged, Interested in computer science |
« View previous topic :: View next topic » |
| Author |
Message
|
| veronicamars |
 Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 12:40 pm Post subject: Mathimatically challeneged, Interested in computer science |
 |
|
Forum Freshman
Joined: 28 Apr 2008
Posts: 2
Location: Seattle, WA
|
| I was looking at the pre-reqs for CS at my university and you have to have taken calculus just to minor in computer science. Math does not come to me naturally and I could never make it past trig/pre-calc. And if I can't do that stuff, how can I even hope to learn calculus? A lot of you seem to be teachers and/or tutors- do you think anyone, if they really gave it 110%, could learn (and retain) calculus or do you think some people just don't have the capacity for it? |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
| bit4bit |
| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 12:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Forum Bachelors Degree
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 492
|
Well I think some people are naturally good at maths, and some people aren't, but if you have made it as far as trig and pre-calc maths, then you're probably good enough at it to be able to continue...to move on to calculus from what you know, can seem like a big jump, but really theres only a few simple concepts that you need to know in order to make the initial jump. Then once you've understood what a derivative/integral is, then learning how to apply it to different functions like trig,exponentials,logarithms, fractions, and combinations of them is alot easier.
You might be good at maths, but just dislike using it, in which case I think that if this CS course is something you really want to pursue, then just grin and bear it....get youself a good book (some can be more rigorous than others, so choose the one that best suits you), sit yourself down for half hour each day, and just work through the problems....you might find out that you even like it!...for me, maths really became interesting, when I started learning about calculus, and it's applications are far-reacing in any technical field, so it's definately worthwhile.
Generally you start with
sequences, series, limits, and functions
You might have learnt about this stuff already, in which case, I recommend you to read through this page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative
It's a fairly good introduction to derivatives, and you shouldn't find it hard to understand if you've done the above.
Good luck with your studies.
_________________
Chance favours the prepared mind. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| serpicojr |
| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 2:28 pm Post subject: Re: Mathimatically challeneged, Interested in computer scien |
|
|
Forum Ph.D.
Joined: 17 Jul 2007
Posts: 871
Location: JRZ
|
| veronicamars wrote: |
| do you think anyone, if they really gave it 110%, could learn (and retain) calculus or do you think some people just don't have the capacity for it? |
I do think anyone can learn and retain calculus. Effort is certainly an important part of it, but you also need to have the right attitude to tackle higher level math. If you enter your calculus course with a pessimistic attitude, you'll fulfill your own prophecy and not do well at the class. It's hard to succeed if you spend a lot of effort freaking yourself out.
What is the right attitude? You have to believe that you can do the work. You have to persevere in the face of adversity, whether it's in the form of frustration or tedium. And you have to realize that there is no shame is not understanding something, in asking questions, and in seeking help.
The payoff comes when you make a breakthrough--I find little in the world more glee-inducing than solving a difficult math problem, having a flash of mathematical insight, or making a big conceptual leap. If you keep this in mind, slogging through the trenches becomes more bearable, even enjoyable.
Another important factor is the attitude of your instructor. Ask around your campus and find out who the best calc teachers are. The best calc teachers are those who make themselves accessible, who make an effort to make the subject understandable, and who have patience with their students. A lot of math professors find this difficult to do, inadvertently come off as insensitive jerks, and scare away their students. Stay away from these profs, as they won't provide the right atmosphere for someone with your concerns.
And, of course, let me reemphasize effort. If math doesn't "come naturally" to you, then you should make every effort to attend every class, do all the homework, attend review sessions, etc. If you fall behind in a math class, it's easy to become swamped. Everything builds on the previous material, so if you don't get a good foundation in the first topics you cover, you'll be lost when you get to the later material.
If you have any other questions, let us know! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| JaneBennet |
| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 4:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Forum Junior
Joined: 06 Apr 2008
Posts: 257
Location: UK
|
I’m rather surprised that a computer-science course should require calculus (and place such importance on it). I don’t see how differentiation and integration would play a major part in computer science. I’d have thought that algebra (particularly linear algebra) would be of far higher importance in this area. 
_________________
“A problem worthy of attack
Proves its worth by fighting back.” – Piet Hein
Why can’t a bull see red – literally can’t? Did You Know? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| Harold14370 |
| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 6:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Forum Professor
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 1263
Location: Pennsylvania
|
I agree with Jane, and don't see why it would be required. But if it is, it is. If it means enough to you, maybe you could even transfer to another school which does not require it.
I am not a teacher, but I did manage to tutor my math hating daughter to a decent grade in algebra, which she needed to graduate from college.
My opinion is that there is a certain talent required to do calculus, and I doubt that everybody has it. It's one of those things where you just see the answer, and don't know where it came from. or you just don't see it. My daughter probably wouldn't be able to do it. It's a moot point, because wild horses couldn't drag her into a calculus class. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| bit4bit |
| Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 6:58 am Post subject: |
|
|
Forum Bachelors Degree
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 492
|
| JaneBennet wrote: |
| I’m rather surprised that a computer-science course should require calculus (and place such importance on it). I don’t see how differentiation and integration would play a major part in computer science. I’d have thought that algebra (particularly linear algebra) would be of far higher importance in this area. |
I thought this was a bit strange too actually. For computer science, calculus isn't directly needed at all, but discrete maths subjects like algorithms, and matrices are used (Actually, I don't think matrices are classed as discrete maths at all, but I know they are used alot in CS). I have a mate doing a software engineering course, and thats what he does.
There's probably alot of industrial applications that make use of calculus in software for modelling/solving differential equations and so on though, and in those cases you'd probably need to know how to code a numerical solver for them. The Runge-Kutta algorithm is one example I know of, and there might be more too.
_________________
Chance favours the prepared mind. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| JaneBennet |
| Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 7:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Forum Junior
Joined: 06 Apr 2008
Posts: 257
Location: UK
|
| bit4bit wrote: |
| I thought this was a bit strange too actually. For computer science, calculus isn't directly needed at all, but discrete maths subjects like algorithms, and matrices are used (Actually, I don't think matrices are classed as discrete maths at all, but I know they are used alot in CS). I have a mate doing a software engineering course, and thats what he does. |
Matrices are fun.  They form one of two major areas of study in linear algebra (the other being vector spaces – which are more abstract and probably not needed in an elementary course on computer science). Matrices also feature in abstract algebra. For each positive integer n the set of all n×n matrices whose entries are elements of a ring forms a ring under matrix addition and multiplication, while if the entries are elements of a field F, the set of all invertible n×n matrices forms a group under matrix multiplication, called the general linear group of degree n: GLn(F). However, I don’t think abstract algebra is required in an introductory comp-science course. Maybe in well advanced courses, but most probably not in a beginner’s course.
| Quote: |
| There's probably alot of industrial applications that make use of calculus in software for modelling/solving differential equations and so on though, and in those cases you'd probably need to know how to code a numerical solver for them. The Runge-Kutta algorithm is one example I know of, and there might be more too. |
Oh, if you’re developing software for solving differential equations, that’s different – then you definitely need calculus.  What I’m saying is that in computer science in general (rather than computer science for particular applications) calculus wouldn’t play such a major role as the OP’s course description seems to suggest.
_________________
“A problem worthy of attack
Proves its worth by fighting back.” – Piet Hein
Why can’t a bull see red – literally can’t? Did You Know? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| holysword |
| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:23 am Post subject: |
|
|
Forum Freshman
Joined: 05 Apr 2008
Posts: 10
|
Why can't you see the importance of calculus in CS?!?! O.o
When you works with scientific computation, you need to know a lot about linear algebra and calculus!
Some people think that should just learn programming languages and software engineree in CS, but there is a lot beyond this. I'm having problems now that I can barely solve 'cause of this kind of negligence in calculus and linear algebra teaching; teachers don't think its important, teach only the basics as you will never will need of that; when you need, you must re-learn everything again...
Conjugate gradients, Newton and Quasi-Newton Methods, KKT, etc... how to study those things without calculus?!?!?! O.o
_________________
"Nolite arbitrari quia venerim mittere pacem in terram non veni pacem mittere sed gladium"
Yeshua Ha Mashiach |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| JaneBennet |
| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
Forum Junior
Joined: 06 Apr 2008
Posts: 257
Location: UK
|
| holysword wrote: |
| Conjugate gradients, Newton and Quasi-Newton Methods, KKT, etc... how to study those things without calculus?!?!?! O.o |
Now that you’ve pointed them out, I get a better idea of the role of calculus in CS.  However, I’m presuming that the course VeronicaMars is referring to is a beginner/immediate-level course. The applications you mention probably belong to more advanced courses – whereas Veronica does talk about only “minoring” in computer science. 
_________________
“A problem worthy of attack
Proves its worth by fighting back.” – Piet Hein
Why can’t a bull see red – literally can’t? Did You Know? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| holysword |
| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Forum Freshman
Joined: 05 Apr 2008
Posts: 10
|
Yeah JaneBennet, its a advanced course. But to get there, you must learn the basis; you can't teach calculus in a mastership degree :S
Actually, its not your fault, 'cause even the teachers don't know what's for. As I said, they teach the thing as you'll never use it.
_________________
"Nolite arbitrari quia venerim mittere pacem in terram non veni pacem mittere sed gladium"
Yeshua Ha Mashiach |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| veronicamars |
| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Forum Freshman
Joined: 28 Apr 2008
Posts: 2
Location: Seattle, WA
|
| Thank you all for replying. That was very inspiring serpicojr, thanks for spending so much time writing that and encouraging me. Yes Jane, unfortunately the calc is required for just getting a minor in computer science at my college. I just wish that side of my brain worked better. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
| |
|
Page 1 of 1 |
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
|
|
