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| SuperNatendo |
 Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 2:12 pm Post subject: Light and Mass |
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Forum Masters Degree
Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 518
Location: Nashville, TN USA
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I'm in sort of a predicament here.
Does light have mass and take up space? I know my astronomy teacher back in high school said it did. As far as I have been researching though light apparently takes up space but has no mass.
The explanations for this usually follow along these lines, if light has mass, then by it traveling the speed of light it should have infinite mass.
Plus, depending on the theory of gravity being used:
theory A: If light is affected by the gravity of a black hole, and if gravity is the attraction of two objects of mass, then light has mass.
Theory B: if gravity is simply the effect of mass on space time, the light is still going straight, but space-time is so warped around the black hole that "straight" no longer appears to be straight from an outside observer who is not being affected by the warped space-time.
I personally think that this proves both that light has no mass and that gravity is not an attraction of mass, but is the effect of mass on the fabric of space-time.
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| Dishmaster |
| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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Light does not have a mass, but it has an impulse. That may sound strange, but on quantum level everything is very strange. The total energy of a moving particle is the sum of the rest energy and the kinetic energy. This can be written relativistically as:
Here, m_0 is the mass of rest. For a photon, this is zero. H can also be expressed as E. This leads to:
E = p*c
Luis de Broglie found that for every particle, its impulse is related to a wavelength:
If you combine both equations, you get:
Nice, isn't it? You can also turn this little math around and show in this way that m_0 must be zero. |
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| SuperNatendo |
| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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Forum Masters Degree
Joined: 10 Dec 2007
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Location: Nashville, TN USA
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So basically it verifies Einstein's theory that gravity is simply the result of the affect of large bodies of mass on space-time. Otherwise, light would just keep going and not be affected by gravity if gravity was an attraction of mass. Since light has no mass it would not be "attracted" to the black hole.
As for the math, what does the underscore in m_0 mean? I'm assuming it means base...?
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| Dishmaster |
| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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| SuperNatendo wrote: |
As for the math, what does the underscore in m_0 mean? I'm assuming it means base...? |
It's just an index. It only means that it is some kind of zero-order mass. It is often used in Relativity to distinguish it from the total mass of an object. |
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| SuperNatendo |
| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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Location: Nashville, TN USA
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Also, according to my research, you don't need to have mass to bend space-time, high amounts of energy also bend space-time? So basically, it doesn't matter if you have alot of mass or alot of energy or both, just the presence of alot of bosons, energy particles, or pieces of matter bend space-time!
And if enough light energy exists to bend space time, it would actually cause a "scale" of some sort to be tricked into registering that the light had mass, and this would actually be due to the curvature of space time instead!
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| William McCormick |
| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 03 Apr 2008
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| SuperNatendo wrote: |
Also, according to my research, you don't need to have mass to bend space-time, high amounts of energy also bend space-time? So basically, it doesn't matter if you have alot of mass or alot of energy or both, just the presence of alot of bosons, energy particles, or pieces of matter bend space-time!
And if enough light energy exists to bend space time, it would actually cause a "scale" of some sort to be tricked into registering that the light had mass, and this would actually be due to the curvature of space time instead! |
You cannot change time. Sorry.
Over time you can create illusions of mass. By velocity transfers that cause reverberation. Or a lack of total exchange of velocity.
Everything is made of electrons. So if you create a powerful enough magnet, you can bend a room and the furnishings in the room. This experiment is now hidden away, until the next accident. Then they will take out that experiment/accident again. For five minutes and you will not hear about it till the next accident.
They were trying to bend light. And you cannot bend light. It is going to fast, to be bothered by other electrons. Because light cuts a path in matter. You could bend air, or cause air to move or change density, with magnetics and it would create an effect similar to a mirage in the dessert. Basically heated air distorts and bends light. It refracts it.
Magnets can do the same thing to air.
Sincerely,
William McCormick
_________________
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| SuperNatendo |
| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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Location: Nashville, TN USA
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The Philadelphia experiment was a test to make the ship "invisible" to underwater mines. When someone misheard this, you get the myth of the vanishing ship.
All atoms have electrons, except hydroxyl ions, but bosons and light are not made up of electrons, you have been told this over and over!
This thread was about light and mass, not time travel! And yes, space and time are interwoven, when you say you will meet someone at the cafe, and you don't tell them when, you aren't really giving them enough information are you? If you tell someone when you will meet them but not where, they don't have enough information. That is but a simple example, but yes, it has been proven that time and space are interwoven and when you bend space, you are also bending time.
Space-time is one and cannot be separated into separate entities properly.
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| Scifor Refugee |
| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 7:07 am Post subject: |
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| William McCormick wrote: |
You cannot change time. Sorry.
Over time you can create illusions of mass. By velocity transfers that cause reverberation. Or a lack of total exchange of velocity.
Everything is made of electrons. So if you create a powerful enough magnet, you can bend a room and the furnishings in the room. This experiment is now hidden away, until the next accident. |
Look, if you're going to push your own "alternative" theories about physics that's fine, but at least have the honesty to preface your posts with a statement that your ideas are not widely accepted by actual physicists. Most people who come here looking for information are looking for the generally-accepted physical model of the universe that they would learn in university courses. Don't try to present your own pet theories as established when they aren't.
On a side note, there is a national lab near where I live with a 45 tesla magnet. It weighs 34 tons. When they built it in 1999 it was the most powerful magnet in the world. It consumes 20 megawatts of power when turned on and is cooled by liquid helium. And it doesn't cause any of the effects you describe. Physicists need high magnetic fields for all sorts of experiments, and the more powerful your field is, the better data you can get. The result is that people build the most powerful magnets they are able to – so if what you say is true, everyone would know about it already. It’s absurd to suggest that they built a magnet in the 1950s that was more powerful than the ones we can build today.
Last edited by Scifor Refugee on Mon May 12, 2008 9:45 am; edited 3 times in total |
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| Tenacity |
| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 7:46 am Post subject: |
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Joined: 10 May 2008
Posts: 100
Location: Instow, Devon, UK
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| Thankyou for putting William in his place. Doubtless he will argue back but I think we can all accept now that he is, infact, a renegade monkey that discovered that by pushing buttons on a keyboard he can make things appear on the screen. |
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| William McCormick |
| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 03 Apr 2008
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| Scifor Refugee wrote: |
| William McCormick wrote: |
You cannot change time. Sorry.
Over time you can create illusions of mass. By velocity transfers that cause reverberation. Or a lack of total exchange of velocity.
Everything is made of electrons. So if you create a powerful enough magnet, you can bend a room and the furnishings in the room. This experiment is now hidden away, until the next accident. |
Look, if you're going to push your own "alternative" theories about physics that's fine, but at least have the honesty to preface your posts with a statement that your ideas are not widely accepted by actual physicists. Most people who come here looking for information are looking for the generally-accepted physical model of the universe that they would learn in university courses. Don't try to present your own pet theories as established when they aren't.
On a side note, there is a national lab near where I live with a 45 tesla magnet. It weighs 34 tons. When they built it in 1999 it was the most powerful magnet in the world. It consumes 20 megawatts of power when turned on and is cooled by liquid helium. And it doesn't cause any of the effects you describe. Physicists need high magnetic fields for all sorts of experiments, and the more powerful your field is, the better data you can get. The result is that people build the most powerful magnets they are able to – so if what you say is true, everyone would know about it already. It’s absurd to suggest that they built a magnet in the 1950s that was more powerful than the ones we can build today. |
I am sure you can use all kinds of things to cool off metal. If shielded by and grounded to the grounded metal shield. It will probably be fine. I use noble gases in similar ways. However if you change up that scenario just a bit, things change a lot.
They used to use liquid sodium to cool off some reactors. Then water to cool off the sodium. Now I believe you know what might happen if a stress fracture was to form between the water and the sodium.
I am just saying that these large magnets are nothing more then insane fools wasting life, and hard work, and good individuals real abilities.
Do the over paid Government funded physicists agree with me heck NO! Whoooa!
Sincerely,
William McCormick
_________________
Warning: Any information contained in this post could be part of a conspiracy to make you stupid. So only use it if you understand it. Use at your own risk.
http://www.Rockwelder.com |
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| Scifor Refugee |
| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 6:50 am Post subject: |
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Joined: 02 May 2005
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| William McCormick wrote: |
I am sure you can use all kinds of things to cool off metal. If shielded by and grounded to the grounded metal shield. It will probably be fine. I use noble gases in similar ways. However if you change up that scenario just a bit, things change a lot.
They used to use liquid sodium to cool off some reactors. Then water to cool off the sodium. Now I believe you know what might happen if a stress fracture was to form between the water and the sodium.
I am just saying that these large magnets are nothing more then insane fools wasting life, and hard work, and good individuals real abilities.
Do the over paid Government funded physicists agree with me heck NO! Whoooa!
Sincerely,
William McCormick |
I have no idea what you are trying to communicate here. I was refuting your claim that strong magnetic fields cause the effects that you describe. Also, I don't see how any informed person could think that large, powerful magnets are a waste. Many, many interesting and important experiments are performed with them. They have benefited many areas of science, from physics to biology and even pharmacology. |
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| Tenacity |
| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 9:21 am Post subject: |
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Just ignore William it's only a forum he can do no harm.
A new definition for him would be 'mong'. |
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| William McCormick |
| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 03 Apr 2008
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| Scifor Refugee wrote: |
I have no idea what you are trying to communicate here. I was refuting your claim that strong magnetic fields cause the effects that you describe. Also, I don't see how any informed person could think that large, powerful magnets are a waste. Many, many interesting and important experiments are performed with them. They have benefited many areas of science, from physics to biology and even pharmacology. |
You implied that helium was a safe coolant. Ha-ha. I was stating that I use it as well. But in smaller quantities. And I know how it can become dangerous.
It is a conductor that once excited will not disintegrate, like nitrogen and oxygen. Helium and Argon persist. If you understand how ambient radiation powers a bomb. You would realize how it can be bad to have things persist.
Sincerely,
William McCormick
_________________
Warning: Any information contained in this post could be part of a conspiracy to make you stupid. So only use it if you understand it. Use at your own risk.
http://www.Rockwelder.com |
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| Edmund |
| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 2:00 am Post subject: |
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How does ambient radiation power a bomb? and don't give a link just explain it.
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| Scifor Refugee |
| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 10:42 am Post subject: |
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| William McCormick wrote: |
You implied that helium was a safe coolant. Ha-ha. I was stating that I use it as well. But in smaller quantities. And I know how it can become dangerous.
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It can be dangerous, but accidents that lead to injury are very rare. The main risk is that some small point in the magnet might stop superconducting, which will generate a huge amount of heat and flash-vaporize all the helium. In which case you need to leave the room quickly, or you might asphyxiate. But if you're in a large, well-ventilated room it isn't really a problem. |
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