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| Zitterbewegung |
 Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:10 am Post subject: Judas |
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Forum Freshman
Joined: 24 Dec 2007
Posts: 67
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Hey, after having spent the Easter Holdays couch-potato-ing and watching all kinds of crap on TV including all those 50ies pseudo-religious-historical 3 1/2 hour technicolor Hollywood-monstrosities I wondered why the hell Judas has got such a bad name with Christians (hey, I'm atheist so I was just wondering)??
I mean for the whole nail-him-to-the-cross-so-he-can-save-mankind-mubojumbo you actually NEED Judas. I mean if he wouldn't have told the Romans the Jesus IS the one they are looking for, the whole elaborate scam is null and nought. They would have minded their businesses and lived happily ever after. No rising from the dead and taking his shuttle to his daddy in heaven, nay? I mean look, he just played his role in the game and is getting badmouthed ever since. No fair I'd say! St. Peter and St. Paul are sitting in heaven and counting how many kids are named after them and what about poor Judas?? Not even his gospel is officially canonized allthough it seemed to have existed at some point in time but didn't make it to the collection of stories a.k.a. known as the bible. What do you think about all this?? |
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| BumFluff |
| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:27 am Post subject: |
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Forum Sophomore
Joined: 06 Mar 2008
Posts: 196
Location: Canada
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| Evidentally there was another section of the bible that was just discovered recently that describes the relationship between judas and jesus and portrays him in a different light. It was supose to happen that way because jesus wanted it to not because he was backstabbed. |
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| 425 Chaotic Requisition |
| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:21 am Post subject: |
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The Doctor
Joined: 18 Jun 2007
Posts: 2684
Location: UKGBNI, England, Derbyshire
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The hebrew trasnlation to latin said the word 'betray'.
"One of you will betray me". Said Jesus.
But apparently the word was translated incorrectly. The correct phrase is 'hand over'. And hand over is completley different to betray.
I also saw once that in the gospel of Judas (which the church supposedly hid), it said that God had given him a vision that he must hand over Jesus to the romans, much to Judas' dismay (don't forget he was one of if not the closest of His disciples). He spoke to Jesus about this and about seeing an image of the other disciples stoning him to death (I thought the church said he commited suicide?... ha). But Jesus said that he must be strong to hand Him over, and pointed to a star in the sky, and said:
"This star, here is your star. See how it shines brighter than any other? That is yours and is greater than the others in the Kingdom of God".
Or along those lines.
The church has betrayed Judas, I feel sorry for him. If it were not for Judas handing over Jesus, there would be no sacrafice of Jesus for our sins, no resurrection, no easter and thus as a result, I and others would not right now be stuffing our faces with easter eggs. Oh yeah and there would be no such thing as Christianity (maybe).
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"There is no knowledge, that is not power" - Ralph Waldo Emerson. |
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| ishmaelblues |
| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:54 am Post subject: |
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Forum Freshman
Joined: 27 Mar 2008
Posts: 49
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| Judas was important to the whole story, that is actually indicated within the bible itself, but the gospel of judas is not part of the bible, or a lost part of it or a secret part of it, ect. it is one of many such writings made by gnostics |
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| sunshinewarrior |
| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 7:43 am Post subject: |
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Forum Ph.D.
Joined: 26 Sep 2007
Posts: 825
Location: London
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| ishmaelblues wrote: |
| Judas was important to the whole story, that is actually indicated within the bible itself, but the gospel of judas is not part of the bible, or a lost part of it or a secret part of it, ect. it is one of many such writings made by gnostics |
I thought it was one of the Apocrypha (rejected by the Council of Nicea but current and used by many of the locals who called themselves Christians until then). |
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| daytonturner |
| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:03 am Post subject: |
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Forum Ph.D.
Joined: 03 Oct 2005
Posts: 771
Location: Beautiful Pacific Northwest, USA
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BumFluff said:
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| Evidentally there was another section of the bible that was just discovered recently that describes the relationship between judas and jesus and portrays him in a different light. It was supose to happen that way because jesus wanted it to not because he was backstabbed. |
Yes, this was the gospel according to Judas, apparently dictated or penned by him posthumously. This writing was never in the Bible and I don't think even considered for inclusion. The history of this writing is something of a mystery.
_________________
Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. -- Albert Einstein
If God DID do all of this, is He not the greatest scientist of all? -- dt, 2005 |
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| ishmaelblues |
| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:31 am Post subject: |
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Forum Freshman
Joined: 27 Mar 2008
Posts: 49
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"I thought it was one of the Apocrypha (rejected by the Council of Nicea but current and used by many of the locals who called themselves Christians until then)"
i t was used by some, i would not say many though, and those who read it were on the fringe, egyptian gnostics i believe, not at all a repuitable book then or now. Interesting though i read it and it has a reactionary tone to it concerning the cannonical gospels, but it also has a dualistic quality similar to the maedeans and a certian type of phillosphy that died out in the middle east for the most part. |
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| daytonturner |
| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:23 am Post subject: |
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Forum Ph.D.
Joined: 03 Oct 2005
Posts: 771
Location: Beautiful Pacific Northwest, USA
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Ishmael, I think you need to do a little work and delve into these things a little more on your own before coming here and exposing your lack of research. What is called the Apocrapha are books which which were accepted by the early church and they are still found in the Roman Catholic Bible.
I am not sure if we have a complete list of all the writing that were considered at the Council of Nicea. Egyptian group to which you refer were Coptic Jews, not gnostics.
A mere google on the terms such as apocrapha, Council of Nicea, and "Gospel of Judas" would give you a lot of information if you are really interested. You do have some responsibility to do basic research on your own.
_________________
Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. -- Albert Einstein
If God DID do all of this, is He not the greatest scientist of all? -- dt, 2005 |
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| serpicojr |
| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:27 am Post subject: |
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Forum Ph.D.
Joined: 17 Jul 2007
Posts: 859
Location: JRZ
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| Has anyone read Borges' Three Versions of Judas? Fantastic. It's short (as are all of his works), and you can find it on the net (as you probably can all of his works, fortunately or not). |
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| ishmaelblues |
| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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Forum Freshman
Joined: 27 Mar 2008
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| daytonturner the gospel of judas was writing by a group of gnostics not jews and never part of the apochrypha of the catholic bible, or ethiopian orthodox |
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| Orleander |
| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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Forum Freshman
Joined: 25 Mar 2008
Posts: 90
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| Yeah, I was raised that Jesus was born so that he could die for our sins. If it was a whole big plan than Judas was fated to hand over Jesus for money. If he hadn't done so then no one could get into heaven. Yeah Judas!!! |
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| daytonturner |
| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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Forum Ph.D.
Joined: 03 Oct 2005
Posts: 771
Location: Beautiful Pacific Northwest, USA
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Ishmaelblues said:
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| daytonturner the gospel of judas was writing by a group of gnostics not jews and never part of the apochrypha of the catholic bible, or ethiopian orthodox |
Well you are part right here in the part where you note it was never a part of the apochrypha and is not found in the Catholic Bible, which is what I thought I said before.
However, the history of this gospel is incomplete at best. The National Geographic Scociety finally ended up with the manuscripts after they had bounced around for about 20 years after their discovery. They have spent several years authenticating and working with the documents. Leading off a synopsis of their study they note:
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| An ancient Coptic manuscript dating from the third or fourth century, containing the only known surviving copy of the Gospel of Judas, has been restored and authenticated after being lost for nearly 1,700 years. |
This can be found at http://www.nationalgeographic.com/lostgospel/about.html
This article will give anyone a good understanding of what scholars do to authenticate such ancient documents.
If you have some evidence that it was written by gnostics, you should immediately contact the National Geographic society since they seem to be somewhat inconclusive as to the origin of the manuscript. (Incidentally, I don't think they will accept a writeup in Wikipedia as valid evidence.)
_________________
Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. -- Albert Einstein
If God DID do all of this, is He not the greatest scientist of all? -- dt, 2005 |
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| ishmaelblues |
| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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Forum Freshman
Joined: 27 Mar 2008
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please when i read it i instantly thought gnostic which is more less a blanket term for any sect outside of the mainstream in early christanity, i'll find sources if i must...  |
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| ishmaelblues |
| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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| daytonturner |
| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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Forum Ph.D.
Joined: 03 Oct 2005
Posts: 771
Location: Beautiful Pacific Northwest, USA
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OK, I been had on this. I scanned at a few articles and nothing I read even mentioned a belief that this gospel had been penned by gnostic Christians only that they had apparently been preserve by the Coptic Jews.
I thank you, Ishmaelblues, for setting me straight. I stand corrected -- good research.
_________________
Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. -- Albert Einstein
If God DID do all of this, is He not the greatest scientist of all? -- dt, 2005 |
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