| Is homeopathy hinging on pseudoscience? |
| Yes |
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71% |
[ 10 ] |
| No |
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7% |
[ 1 ] |
| Other (explain) |
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14% |
[ 2 ] |
| I don't know what it is |
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7% |
[ 1 ] |
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| Total Votes : 14 |
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| scientstphilosophertheist |
 Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:17 pm Post subject: Homeopathy |
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On another forum, someone was considering whether they should get homeopathic treatment. Homeopathy seems like pseudoscience to me, especially after reading the Wikipedia article on it. Any opinions? Is it valid as a scientific area of study?
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| adamd164 |
| Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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I can't remember which part it's in, but watch the excellent Enemies of Reason by Richard Dawkins. It discusses pseudoscience generally, including quite a substantial piece on homeopathy.
Part 1
Part 2
In answer to your question, yes, I believe it to be pseudoscience, and ergo utter nonsense.
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| 425 Chaotic Requisition |
| Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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The Doctor
Joined: 18 Jun 2007
Posts: 3147
Location: Now
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| adamd164 wrote: |
I can't remember which part it's in, but watch the excellent Enemies of Reason by Richard Dawkins. It discusses pseudoscience generally, including quite a substantial piece on homeopathy.
Part 1
Part 2
In answer to your question, yes, I believe it to be pseudoscience, and ergo utter nonsense. |
Why is something imeasurable nonsense? Nothing is inexplicable, only unexplained.
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An apple a day... Oh never mind. |
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| Chemboy |
| Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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I'd say it's bordering (if not beyond bordering) on pseudoscience. I see no reason to think that homeopathy would work.
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| KALSTER |
| Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:46 am Post subject: |
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Joined: 08 Sep 2007
Posts: 1957
Location: South Africa
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What are we talking about here? Herbal remedies and such? Like Ginkgo Biloba and so on? Well I would have thought that at least some of them would work. Supposedly, most of these remedies are old remedies that have been used for a long time in Asia and so on. So while some of them might simply be a placebo effect, I would think that some others might contain some ingredient that DOES have a positive effect on the ailment, if only maybe caffeine or aspirin. I would certainly not use it as a sole treatment, but it might make some difference to comfort levels at least?
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| 425 Chaotic Requisition |
| Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 4:12 am Post subject: |
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The Doctor
Joined: 18 Jun 2007
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| KALSTER wrote: |
| What are we talking about here? Herbal remedies and such? Like Ginkgo Biloba and so on? Well I would have thought that at least some of them would work. Supposedly, most of these remedies are old remedies that have been used for a long time in Asia and so on. So while some of them might simply be a placebo effect, I would think that some others might contain some ingredient that DOES have a positive effect on the ailment, if only maybe caffeine or aspirin. I would certainly not use it as a sole treatment, but it might make some difference to comfort levels at least? |
Yes I fully agree, there has to be some kind of chemical effect aside from the placebo effect. Otherwise you would not take a parcetamol if a green herb ( ) could do a better job.
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| free radical |
| Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 8:04 am Post subject: |
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Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 453
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| KALSTER wrote: |
| What are we talking about here? Herbal remedies and such? |
The problem with the original question is that some people interpret 'homeopathy' to mean herbal remedies (some subset of which certainly have pharmacological properties) and other people interpret 'homeopathy' more strictly:
a system of medicine that stresses the administration of minute doses that would produce symptoms of the disease in healthy persons; it is based on the belief that "like cures like"
The former is not pseudoscience, the latter certainly is. |
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| adamd164 |
| Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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| KALSTER wrote: |
| What are we talking about here? Herbal remedies and such? Like Ginkgo Biloba and so on? |
No.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy
http://www.google.ie/search?hl=en&q=define%3Ahomeopathy&btnG=Google+Search&meta=
| free radical wrote: |
The problem with the original question is that some people interpret 'homeopathy' to mean herbal remedies (some subset of which certainly have pharmacological properties) and other people interpret 'homeopathy' more strictly:
a system of medicine that stresses the administration of minute doses that would produce symptoms of the disease in healthy persons; it is based on the belief that "like cures like"
The former is not pseudoscience, the latter certainly is. |
Yes, and it IS the latter that we are discussing. Herbal remedies and homeopathy are NOT the same thing, it is not open to interpretation. Any dictionary will tell you that.
_________________
Knowledge of evolution may not be strictly useful in everyday commerce. You can live some sort of life and die without ever hearing the name of Darwin. But if, before you die, you want to understand why you lived in the first place, Darwinism is the one subject that you must study.
~ Richard Dawkins
Last edited by adamd164 on Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:22 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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| adamd164 |
| Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 21 Oct 2006
Posts: 64
Location: Cork, Ireland
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| svwillmer wrote: |
| Why is something imeasurable nonsense? Nothing is inexplicable, only unexplained. |
Are we discussing pseudoscience generally here?
I believe pseudoscience to be nonsense because it is unsubstantiated, uncorroborated, and contrary to any evidence. I never said that it was inexplicable; I don't think there's anything to explain, you see. It is nonsense; its practice, in my opinion, is a form of intellectual high-treason.
Do you know what homeopathy actually is, svwillmer? Because it doesn't appear so. Try watching the documentary that I linked to, and also read the wikipedia page. Homeopathy involves treating patients with "medicines" whose concentrations are so unimaginably small that what is taken IS water.
We are talking here about not one single molecule in the administered liquid belonging to the supposedly 'active' ingredient. We simply cannot say whether this ingredient really works, because it's not there! It is no different to water from the kitchen tap.
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Knowledge of evolution may not be strictly useful in everyday commerce. You can live some sort of life and die without ever hearing the name of Darwin. But if, before you die, you want to understand why you lived in the first place, Darwinism is the one subject that you must study.
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| scientstphilosophertheist |
| Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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| adamd164 |
| Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 21 Oct 2006
Posts: 64
Location: Cork, Ireland
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Yes, it is farcical. As I have said, not one single molecule in the administered "medicine" is the active ingredient. It is just water!
Excellent video, by the way. Thanks for sharing.
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Knowledge of evolution may not be strictly useful in everyday commerce. You can live some sort of life and die without ever hearing the name of Darwin. But if, before you die, you want to understand why you lived in the first place, Darwinism is the one subject that you must study.
~ Richard Dawkins |
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| Twaaannnggg |
| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 1:50 am Post subject: |
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Joined: 30 May 2007
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I checked the "Other" box.
"Other" like in "A bunch of morons regurgitating the same old tired hogwash over and over again trying to make money from other peoples stupidity"
I have no problem with herbal remedies, don't get me wrong here. If there is a proven effect (I take herbal remedies for a problem with my fat-metabolism) hey, go for it.
But diluting chemicals down to "immesurable" and claiming that there is an effect due to the "memory of water" is just plain and simple FRAUD. I always have a good laugh when I go to Ben Goldacres site about pseudoscience. Especially the "explanations" those fraudsters come up with why and how their remedies work really are Da Shiat.
I mean, can one imagine the "effect" of a single (I mean like in "one", 1, uno, eins, un, mono etc.) molecule of the substance that is claimed to work it's magic diluted in a bowl of water the size of the earth? That actually IS the dilution homeopaths call D50. Unfortunately the concentration of contaminants in the water those people use is a factor of 10^30 higher than the actual "active principle" with a dilution like this, even with extremely high purity water. Makes one wonder.
I really had a lot of fun when I demonstrated the "effects" of those remedies at a garden party. A friend and I got in a discussion with one of these homeopathy nuts, so we went to the drugstore and got the highest potencies (something ridiculously high like C4 or C5) of remedies against all ailments one can imagine. So we went back to this party and swallowed all that sugar beads and deionized water over the course of the afternoon right in front of this whacko. He promised us that we would get sick - yes he actually did!! I could not believe this!!!! Guess what happened. Correctamundo - NOTHING. And those extreme dilutions are supposed to be the most potent homeopathic "medicines". Well, I'll stick with aspirin in the future.
On eimportant question remains: why are those butt-nuts not IN FAVOUR of environmental pollution?? Those people claim that a chemical is more potent when more diluted, so any pollution in water air or soil will be more noxious when in LOW concentration. So hey folks, just dump all your waste whereever you want, those people will love you for that.
Anyway........ Homeopathy is pure quackery like in the medival times and certain people want to believe and will tell you: "I know what I know and YOUR science will not make me believe otherwise!" O.K. ............whatever "my science" is 
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| sunshinewarrior |
| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 4:00 am Post subject: |
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Joined: 26 Sep 2007
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It's not hinging on pseudoscience. It's not 'verging' on pseudoscience. It is pseudoscience.
It is an embarrassment to the UK that the heir to the throne (a title that still, alas, means something to people) should advocate it and get the NHS to, tentatively, recommend it. I put money into taxes and national insurance in order to help people get medical care free at the point of contact. Homoeopathy is not medicine.
Here's a cracking example of how far it is from medicine:
"Q538 Lord Broers: I have a simple, technical question about homeopathy and drugs. Is it possible to distinguish between homeopathic drugs after they have been diluted? Is there any means of distinguishing one from the other?
Ms Chatfield: Only by the label."
They can only tell one medicine from another by hoping that someone's put the labels on correctly!
If these medicines are 'efficacious' wouldn't a surly dispenser have, by now, started an epidemic by switching labels?
The thing's a nonsense, I tell you, a nonsense. And it's my money that's going to fund some of it...  |
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| KALSTER |
| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:20 am Post subject: |
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Forum Professor
Joined: 08 Sep 2007
Posts: 1957
Location: South Africa
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It’s the Mesmer effect. Placebo effect. Why don't people go to court and sue these bastards? You can sue anyone for anything over there. Go for it! It might get televised and you’d save some people from wasting money or even save some lives.
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| sunshinewarrior |
| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:30 am Post subject: |
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Joined: 26 Sep 2007
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| KALSTER wrote: |
| It’s the Mesmer effect. Placebo effect. Why don't people go to court and sue these bastards? You can sue anyone for anything over there. Go for it! It might get televised and you’d save some people from wasting money or even save some lives. |
Because none of their specific claims can be tied down: the number of qualifications they make, they might as well be astrology columns - "Please note this is just for entertainment". Strictly Come Dancing is better for my health than homoeopathy! |
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