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| Theoryofrelativity |
 Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 3:14 pm Post subject: Guilt - Why is it necessary? |
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We are aware many of our emotions are tied into our survival as individuals and as a species, but I was wondering in what way is feeling 'guilt' useful to our survival. How do we 'benefit' from this emotional expression?
Does one assume it is necessary as a sophisticated deterrant against further abuses which could affect our individual/whole survival or something else?
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| 425 Chaotic Requisition |
| Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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The Doctor
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Perhaps an emotional failsafe. You experience something and that when you feel guilty over it is your mind saying 'trouble ahead if you keep at it'. Take cheating husbands for instance, why they feel guilty? Because there may be a divorce or a separating of the family and the kids will be very disrupted and thus stops the high probabilty that his genes will be passed on due to their kids becoming bad people in the future, possible  . Along those lines.
Personally the guilt train should come in BEFORE any act, then again that would be effect/cause and not cause/effect so  .
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| paralith |
| Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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Considering that guilt is usually a result of the way you behave towards others, I would have to say that it's a built in mechanism made to deter you from behaviors that are detrimental to the cooperative harmony of a group or couple.
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| Theoryofrelativity |
| Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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| paralith wrote: |
| Considering that guilt is usually a result of the way you behave towards others, I would have to say that it's a built in mechanism made to deter you from behaviors that are detrimental to the cooperative harmony of a group or couple. |
yes and we do seem to teach 'guilt' as a means for deterring children from antisocial behaviors.
Meanwhile
It's all about how we consciously (intellectually) define that physical feeling though isn't it? The feeling of guilt absent of thought or at least language is a physical gut wrenching type of experience. Similar I suppose to the physical manifestation of anxiety if not the same.
Pre-language, we would not have interpretted this feeling as 'guilt' we would have interpretted it as a warning of something to avoid, and I suppose if the feeling came after the event rather than before, some confusion in the languageless human must have been present.
How I wonder did they deal with this 'after effect', how did they rationalise it? Perhaps that feeling was what prompted conscious thought to evolve.
With language and an ability to examine the nature of this 'after effect' I suppose came the origin of a sense of morality?
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Last edited by Theoryofrelativity on Tue Jan 15, 2008 3:39 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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| Guest |
| Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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| I think it may have it's roots in submissivness, think about the behaviour of primate groups, when an ape 'misbehaves' it assumes the submissive to the dominant. yes?/ no? /maybe? |
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| 425 Chaotic Requisition |
| Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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The Doctor
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Its a defence mechanism, to survive. Like all reactions, all mechanisms. Even at the end of time we'll still live to survive and thats the bottom line. Everything bottles down to surviving. With the occasional glimpse of self sacrafice (which still relates to self survivial too).
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| Theoryofrelativity |
| Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Megabrain wrote: |
| I think it may have it's roots in submissivness, think about the behaviour of primate groups, when an ape 'misbehaves' it assumes the submissive to the dominant. yes?/ no? /maybe? |
The ape knows it has misbehaved how?
If indeed this can be shown, then is the chimp taught about right and wrong actions as a baby? So chimps have a sense of right and wrong and thus a sense of morality.
Do other species demonstrate 'guilt' and thus a sense of 'morality'?
Is morality nothing more than a humans elaborate expression of a very basic and common to all species survival mechanism?
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| Theoryofrelativity |
| Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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We should change this thread title to:
Guilt - the origin of morality?
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| Guest |
| Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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| When young chinps [excluding very young] 'misbehave' they are often struck with the back of the hand of a parent or senior member of the group, after a few times they do indeed appear to learn [let's not say right from wrong] what does and does not prompt older chimps to respond. once learnt if they then 'misbehave' they then imediately assume th esubmissive position. I think I remember an episode of "monkey world" on brit TV that alluded to this. |
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| Theoryofrelativity |
| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 1:25 am Post subject: |
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| Megabrain wrote: |
| When young chinps [excluding very young] 'misbehave' they are often struck with the back of the hand of a parent or senior member of the group, after a few times they do indeed appear to learn [let's not say right from wrong] what does and does not prompt older chimps to respond. once learnt if they then 'misbehave' they then imediately assume th esubmissive position. I think I remember an episode of "monkey world" on brit TV that alluded to this. |
young humans are taught similarly though, and surely anything that prompts a 'smack' is indeed defining our concept of 'wrong'.
If not than are you saying humans are born with an innate ability to define it themselves from birth?
That said some are more innately 'caring' it would appear than others but all are (depending on their curiosity levels) capable of harming others. Till they are taught otherwise.
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| jacketate |
| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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Reading this thread has made me question the idea of guilt.
In my opinion man looks out for number one, if something is going to benefit him he will definitely do it.
So why the guilt, if as you say the act he feels guilty for helps him survive why should he feel bad?
So I don't think it is an animal instinct at all. i think it is to do with human morality and more civilised brain. which in my opinion is what sets us apart from the animals
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| paralith |
| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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| jacketate wrote: |
Reading this thread has made me question the idea of guilt.
In my opinion man looks out for number one, if something is going to benefit him he will definitely do it.
So why the guilt, if as you say the act he feels guilty for helps him survive why should he feel bad? |
Because, for humans, the group is essential to reproductive success. We are group living animals, and each individual in the group benefits by increased group cooperation. So, by carrying out activities which activate a very strong guilt response, you are probably significantly jeopardizing your position as a member of the cooperative group, which will most certainly not help you survive.
Of course, there is still within-group competition, for who gets the most benefits from this group living situation. So humans may often feel conflicted about finding ways to advance their own position while still remaining an trustworthy, cooperating member of the group. Different individuals in different environments will find different ways of resolving this conflict for themselves.
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~Jean-Paul Sartre
Monkeys in Clothes - hosted by SFN blogs |
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| jacketate |
| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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Yeh i think position within the group and benefiting the group is a part of it
however i think that withing group competition/selfishness/looking out for #1. is definetly prevalent over group vs group competition/group survival
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| 425 Chaotic Requisition |
| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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The Doctor
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Found this:
Its a more enviromental or developmental apporach to forgivness and guilt. Seeing as I've been recently flamed for doing this I'm stating here that this link in some way might mean something, it moved me anyway.
Sorry to anyone if this is an innapropirate post as due to some recent replies to me I don't give good enough ones.
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| Theoryofrelativity |
| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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I am not a group person, I am not selfish, but I am not a follower and often go against what the majority wants to do.
Interestingly, regardless of how passively I resist 'following' my resistance is viewed as aggression and the result is that the groups attacks me.
So, feeling a threat from a passive creature, as a response must be part of the group’s survival instinct. They recognize what may be a threat to group cohesion (anarchist perhaps) and so go on the attack after perceiving an attack when in fact no attack was made on them.
Similarly, guilt perhaps works along the same seemingly flawed lines. In that it may be triggered in cases where to the individual feeling it, it makes no sense and as such is there and yet most unwelcome. The guilt is a conflict of interests, conflict between self and group. They WANT to be for themselves.
The guilt though is perhaps the trigger that tries (against their will) to persuade them to act for the group and not against it.
I think that 'guilt' and not religion, is the origin of morality.
Or perhaps, 'guilt' was the origin of morality and THEN the from that came 'religion'. Religion being a vehicle to free ourselves of guilt. Ie, we created a vehicle for 'forgiveness of ALL sins'.
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