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| thyristor |
 Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:01 am Post subject: Earth the center of Universe? |
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I just thought of a funny thing. You know the priests used to say that the earth was the centre of the universe. Then it was proved wrong.
But with the Big Bang theory evry could be see as the centre of Universe because it expands in all directions!
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| UKDutyPaid |
| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:48 am Post subject: |
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Quite true! maybe they were right all along!
However, bare in mind that they also said the sun and planets orbited the Earth, something we know isn't the case. So, they were still wrong, even if they were right.  |
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| Ophiolite |
| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:28 am Post subject: Re: Earth the center of Universe? |
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Forum Radioactive Isotope
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| thyristor wrote: |
| I just thought of a funny thing. You know the priests used to say that the earth was the centre of the universe. Then it was proved wrong. |
Interesting point, but remember it was the priests, scientists, philosophers and everyone else who said this, not just the priests.
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| Dishmaster |
| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:45 am Post subject: Re: Earth the center of Universe? |
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| thyristor wrote: |
| But with the Big Bang theory evry could be see as the centre of Universe because it expands in all directions! |
You are joking, right? You are not seriously suggesting that Earth is really the centre of the universe, are you? This observation that (nearly) everything seems to expand from us, is NOT evidence for this. You would notice the same fact from every other point in the universe. |
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| wert |
| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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The universe is probably not a three dimensional entity and therefore does not have a centre in the sense that us 3d beings percieve it.
It's like asking where the centre of the world map is, it depends upon where you are and how you draw it, anywhere can be shown to be the centre of the earth's surface map. |
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| BumFluff |
| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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I think the center of the Universe is the area where the Big Bang originally occured if it spread equally in all directions. However I've read somewhere that the expansion fo space decreases and increases at various times and at various points which then would put the center of our universe at somewhere completely different.
I've recently read a book caleld "The View from the Center of the Universe" and it argues in a round about way what you are trying to say but the reason isn't because space expands in all directions. The reason was because we are the center of our viewpoint of the universe just as someone from another star system would be the center from the viewpoint of their universe.
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| thyristor |
| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 1:21 am Post subject: Re: Earth the center of Universe? |
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| Dishmaster wrote: |
| thyristor wrote: |
| But with the Big Bang theory evry could be see as the centre of Universe because it expands in all directions! |
You are joking, right? You are not seriously suggesting that Earth is really the centre of the universe, are you? This observation that (nearly) everything seems to expand from us, is NOT evidence for this. You would notice the same fact from every other point in the universe. |
I said that every point could be seen as the center of the universe and therefore the earth as well could be seen as it.
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| esbo |
| Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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Hubble shows the Earth to be at the centre of the Universe and hence it is.
This also means the Sun and the planets do revolve around the Earth.
Local observations may show otherwise but Hubble shows them to be wrong.
You could argue that the observer is at the centre of the universe, but then
that puts mankind at the centre of the universe.
This is a rather uncomfortable fact for many atheists cosmologists, it's the
last thing they want to hear, but unfortunately for them this is what science shows.
Hence they dream up all sorts of weird concepts to try and avoid reaching
the conclusion that the Earth is at the centre of the Universe.
The Earth is at the centre of the observable universe and it always will be.
Furthermore there is nothing outside the observable universe, nothing can
travel faster than light, so nothing could ever have got there in the first place.
That is what science says.
So either the big bang is wrong or the Earth is at the centre, a case of choose
your poison for atheists cosmologists. |
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| esbo |
| Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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| wert wrote: |
The universe is probably not a three dimensional entity and therefore does not have a centre in the sense that us 3d beings percieve it.
It's like asking where the centre of the world map is, it depends upon where you are and how you draw it, anywhere can be shown to be the centre of the earth's surface map. |
Errr...no.
That old gem. The Universe is a three dimensional object, scientists can come
out with all sorts of bull to say otherwise, however they have to cast every
bit of known science into the dustbin to get that conclusion.
It's like this surface of a balloon analogy.....well unfortunately the universe
is nothing like the surface of a balloon. A surface is a 2 dimensional thing
and like it or not the universe is 3 dimensional one, you may even notice
some 3 dimensional object surrounding you, your computer for example.
It's not flat is it? That a bit of practical science for you.
So... cloud cuckooland analogys don't count.
I could equally say a straight line is analogous to a triangle, but
unfortunately it is not, so any conclusions drawn from that would be garbage.
Are all the planets, stars and galaxies flat and in the same plane?
No. So please pass the dustbin and put you burst balloon into it. |
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| (Q) |
| Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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Forum Ph.D.
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| esbo wrote: |
You could argue that the observer is at the centre of the universe, but then
that puts mankind at the centre of the universe.
This is a rather uncomfortable fact for many atheists cosmologists, it's the
last thing they want to hear, but unfortunately for them this is what science shows.
Hence they dream up all sorts of weird concepts to try and avoid reaching
the conclusion that the Earth is at the centre of the Universe.
The Earth is at the centre of the observable universe and it always will be. |
Now, that's funny. 
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| Dishmaster |
| Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 2:19 am Post subject: |
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Joined: 30 Apr 2008
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Location: Heidelberg, Germany
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| esbo wrote: |
| Hubble shows the Earth to be at the centre of the Universe and hence it is. |
No. Never did. How so? Explain!
| esbo wrote: |
This also means the Sun and the planets do revolve around the Earth.
Local observations may show otherwise but Hubble shows them to be wrong. |
Now, that is absurd. Even if the first point was true, this is not a logical conclusion from it.
| esbo wrote: |
You could argue that the observer is at the centre of the universe, but then
that puts mankind at the centre of the universe. |
I never would! There is no centre of the universe. Hence, Earth cannot be there either.
| esbo wrote: |
This is a rather uncomfortable fact for many atheists cosmologists, it's the
last thing they want to hear, but unfortunately for them this is what science shows. |
Hmm, and what about the believing cosmologists who disagree with you? Cosmology or science in general has nothing to do with being comfortable. Many scientific breakthroughs left uncomfortable feelings in the beginning, because it always means to leave something behind and welcome something new and unkown. This is one reason, why Copernicus' and Galilei's ideas had so much difficulties.
| esbo wrote: |
Hence they dream up all sorts of weird concepts to try and avoid reaching
the conclusion that the Earth is at the centre of the Universe. |
Wake up man! Science just does not work like this. For centuries, scientists thought that you are right. But then new results disagreed with this view, so it had to be changed. Science evolves without dogma. On the other hand, religion is pure dogma.
| esbo wrote: |
The Earth is at the centre of the observable universe and it always will be. |
Well, then come up with your evidence, and perhaps you can convince me. Just stating, that you are right and everybody else is wrong, is not very scientific.
| esbo wrote: |
Furthermore there is nothing outside the observable universe, nothing can
travel faster than light, so nothing could ever have got there in the first place. That is what science says. |
How do you know. Have you been there? Maybe you can't imagine it to be as modern science says. But this has never been a good tool to advance science. Quantum mechanics would never have had a chance with your dogmatism.
| esbo wrote: |
So either the big bang is wrong or the Earth is at the centre, a case of choose your poison for atheists cosmologists. |
I'd pick none of those. |
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| esbo |
| Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 10:08 am Post subject: |
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Joined: 03 May 2008
Posts: 21
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| Dishmaster wrote: |
| esbo wrote: |
| Hubble shows the Earth to be at the centre of the Universe and hence it is. |
No. Never did. How so? Explain!
| esbo wrote: |
This also means the Sun and the planets do revolve around the Earth.
Local observations may show otherwise but Hubble shows them to be wrong. |
Now, that is absurd. Even if the first point was true, this is not a logical conclusion from it.
| esbo wrote: |
You could argue that the observer is at the centre of the universe, but then
that puts mankind at the centre of the universe. |
I never would! There is no centre of the universe. Hence, Earth cannot be there either.
| esbo wrote: |
This is a rather uncomfortable fact for many atheists cosmologists, it's the
last thing they want to hear, but unfortunately for them this is what science shows. |
Hmm, and what about the believing cosmologists who disagree with you? Cosmology or science in general has nothing to do with being comfortable. Many scientific breakthroughs left uncomfortable feelings in the beginning, because it always means to leave something behind and welcome something new and unkown. This is one reason, why Copernicus' and Galilei's ideas had so much difficulties.
| esbo wrote: |
Hence they dream up all sorts of weird concepts to try and avoid reaching
the conclusion that the Earth is at the centre of the Universe. |
Wake up man! Science just does not work like this. For centuries, scientists thought that you are right. But then new results disagreed with this view, so it had to be changed. Science evolves without dogma. On the other hand, religion is pure dogma.
| esbo wrote: |
The Earth is at the centre of the observable universe and it always will be. |
Well, then come up with your evidence, and perhaps you can convince me. Just stating, that you are right and everybody else is wrong, is not very scientific.
| esbo wrote: |
Furthermore there is nothing outside the observable universe, nothing can
travel faster than light, so nothing could ever have got there in the first place. That is what science says. |
How do you know. Have you been there? Maybe you can't imagine it to be as modern science says. But this has never been a good tool to advance science. Quantum mechanics would never have had a chance with your dogmatism.
| esbo wrote: |
So either the big bang is wrong or the Earth is at the centre, a case of choose your poison for atheists cosmologists. |
I'd pick none of those. |
Is is quite simple really, we can see an equal distance in every
direction, our Universe is spherical, it is expanding away from us,
we are at the centre.
There is nothing outside our vision, and if there is it will never affect our
universe anyway.
The evidence shows us to be at the middle, you would expect it from the
laws of science too.
So there is the very hard observational evidence, backed up by
the simple science of it.
I think the evidence is much more on you to show we are not at the
cente, because basically you don't have a shred of observational evidence
for it. You may have some dreamt up theories but none of them stand up
to examination, I have seem some real flaky big bang theories, one of
which requires the universe to exist before it was created.
I don't think they thought it through properly somehow!!! |
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| Dishmaster |
| Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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Location: Heidelberg, Germany
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| I agree that in the end it is a philosophical problem called "Cosmological Principle" which is like an extension of the "Copernican Principle" saying that the Earth has no exceptional role. As far as I am aware, there is no hard proof. But please consider this. If you say, there is a centre of the universe, then it must be limited - it must have a boundary in the 3D world. Since you oppose the view of an expanding balloon with the universe as its surface, this should be a logical conclusion. Now, it can be quite easily shown that such a universe is unstable and will collapse very rapidly because of self-gravity. You see, the matter at the edge of the universe only experiences gravity from within, so it is pulled inside. And this continues in a cascade until everything has collapsed. But the redshift of the most distant matter tells us otherwise. According to your view, the most distant galaxies should be at the edge of the universe. So they should be blue shifted- or at least the degree of redshift should decline the more you reach the edge of the universe. But this not what is observed. My conclusion is, there is no such thing as an observable edge of the universe, at least we don't see it. So, if there is no edge, then there can't be a centre. Another point, how do you explain the cosmic background radiation? |
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| esbo |
| Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 03 May 2008
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Well maybe the universe will collapse eventually and gravity has not yet
overcome the force of expansion. Additionally if the speed of expansion
is greater then the escape velocity it will expand forever, according to
this:-
http://www.astronomynotes.com/gravappl/s8.htm
I know it sounds a bit odd that something could escape gravity but the idea is, I think that once it reaches a certain speed although gravity is still acting on it it is never enough to make it stop, and it gets weaker quicker than
the speed decreases.
The microwave cosmic background radiation is pretty much uniform in
every direction which indicates we are central, otherwise there would be more from one side. |
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| unoscooter |
| Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 8:28 pm Post subject: Re: Earth the center of Universe? |
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Joined: 24 Feb 2008
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| thyristor wrote: |
I just thought of a funny thing. You know the priests used to say that the earth was the centre of the universe. Then it was proved wrong.
But with the Big Bang theory evry could be see as the centre of Universe because it expands in all directions! |
the universe is infinte but so there could be no center to somthing that has no edges. |
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