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| Common sense won’t ‘cut the mustard’ |
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| coberst |
 Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:49 am Post subject: Common sense won’t ‘cut the mustard’ |
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Common sense won’t ‘cut the mustard’
More than three hundred years ago Isaac Newton introduced a theory of mechanics that fit beautifully within our common sense intuition and understanding. Newton’s mechanics, the theory of force acting upon objects, uses such common sense parameters as velocity, mass, force, distance, acceleration, and momentum. The student of physics could “feel” the correctness of Isaac’s formulas.
Quantum mechanics was another problem completely. The physicists seeking to intuit and understand the inner world of the atom were faced with trying to understand something that was beyond the world of human intuition. The inner world of the atom was a world incongruent with common sense.
Early in the twentieth century Freud discovered the psychic unconscious; the inner world of human reality that was somewhat like the inner world of the atom in that it was not easily understood by common sense intuition. Freud’s theory of repression represents itself as a means for comprehending this psychic phenomenon.
The Freudian theory of repression was a revolutionary idea originally discovered in the attempt to comprehend human nature as it develops within civilized society. Civilization demands that the individual repress many natural urges. “In the new Freudian perspective, the essence of society is repression of the individual, and the essence of the individual is repression of himself.”
Feud made this breakthrough discovery of human unconsciousness as a result of his attempt to understand and possibly relieve certain “mad” symptoms of the mentally deranged. Freud found meaningfulness within the psychopathology of everyday life, including slips of the tongue, errors, dreams, and random thoughts.
“Meaningfulness means expression of a purpose or an intention.” The expressions contained in dreams were Freud’s principal means for discovering the presence of the unconscious. These dream expressions uncovered an existence that drove Freud “to embrace the paradox that there are in the human being purposes of which he knows nothing, involuntary purposes, or, in more technical Freudian language, “unconscious” ideas.”
The dynamic conflict between the unconscious and the conscious, i.e. neurosis, is not easily recognized as such by the untutored self.
SGCS (Second Generation Cognitive Science) has recently discovered the importance of the cognitive unconsciousness. Utilizing new brain scanning technology and computer modeling, cognitive science has, in the last three to four decades, introduced us to a new concept; “the unconscious cognitive mind”. This new theory of cognition has made us conscious of the fact that most of our conscious life is dictated by our unconscious cognitive processes. Conservatively speaking 95% of cognitive thought is unconscious.
Comprehension of even the most basic human tendencies is no longer available to the common sense intuition. To grasp the essential elements of living successfully within a high tech society we must find ways to supplement our meager formal education that seems to prepare us only for a life of production and consumption; without the necessary understanding needed to be satisfied and successful in that new world where common sense is no longer sufficient for comprehending the vicissitudes of living.
Have you checked on your unconscious life lately? How does one check on their unconscious life? |
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| Pong |
| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 5:42 am Post subject: |
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| Easy if you try. Think about those things you don't like to think about, or, note your passions, them drill into them mercilessly. Try and prove yourself wrong, deluded, self-repressed. Assume you would lie to yourself about really petty childish things (subconscious is immature). There are other tactics... |
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| Selene |
| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 6:59 am Post subject: Re: Common sense won’t ‘cut the mustard’ |
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Forum Ph.D.
Joined: 04 Feb 2008
Posts: 881
Location: I live in Bertrand Russells teapot!
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| coberst wrote: |
| Common sense won’t ‘cut the mustard’ |
In order to have 'common' sense, you've got to have enough people making sense, and they shut the sense making factories down years ago. (sorry, a silly Minxy joke)
moving on........
| coberst wrote: |
| Have you checked on your unconscious life lately? How does one check on their unconscious life? |
Yes nightly and daily.
The unconscious is that which we are not conscious of something which is not in our 'awareness' and therefore it has a tendency to speak predominantly when you are off your guard or when you exist within an 'unconscious state' such as in dreams in sleep.
It speaks in symbols and what would appear in the logical and rational realm as illogical and irrational.
Which is why certain expressions of the unconscious such as neurosis appear as irrational.
Yet what happens is that an incident, usually traumatic or symbolic, which has occurred in our lives whilst we are in an 'unconscious state' and which we are unaware of. This often occurs in childhood, as this time in our lives is predominantly lived 'unconsciously' before a substantial awareness has developed.
Because of this, the incident has no other place to go than to the unconscious, which then attempts to make sense of it in its irrational symbolic way.
The unconscious is also linked to primeval impulses, where 'non-thinking' action comes into play, such as automatic responses we are all hard-wired with.
If the incident in childhood was traumatic, the unconscious delivers this experience over to the automatic response, and then it becomes an automatic response associated symbolically with a particular event which can appear in normal everyday life as neurotic, obsessional, phobic and irrational behaviour.
The only way to cure these problems in adult life is to become cognitively aware of them.
The unconscious is extremely informative if you know what to look for. It always keeps a picture of every event you've experienced in your life.
Yet it's picture isn't how we'd expect it to be from a logical linear perspective. It often speaks in images, colours, sounds and especially in feelings.
For example if you stubbed your toe on a tree and it really hurt, you might have a dream of a boot tree shouting at you, and every time you see a tree with your boots on, you will suddenly feel anxious. (just a silly example, but to illustrate how the unconscious makes it's own, what appears as often ridiculous' sense of things and relays them back to you)
You will completely miss it's messages if you attempt to observe it within a rational 'common sense' frame of mind. It doesn't speak in those terms. It speaks in symbols as well as these irrational behaviour and impulses previously described.
Jung knew this and so have many others since!
If you want to know yourself and your unconscious, record all your dreams, especially the strange ones which appear symbolic and especially if they are difficult to explain once your awake.
And watch yourself incessantly for a period of time. Become conscious of every thought, idea action and emotion that pops into existence. Then become like an inquisitive child and constantly ask where that came from and why.
Often there will be a link to why you became angry or something repelled you, or you thought a thought, all of a sudden, the unconscious mind links things symbolically and if you trace the link back, you will more often than not discover an experience which initiated the response, and often when, at the time, you were completely unaware of how a particular experience was affecting you.
This becoming cognitive and aware of the unconscious is the uniting of opposites, the rational with the irrational, that many spiritual practices speak of. It is the knowing of self and 'self-actualizing'.
Because as you know some unconscious impulses can do lots of harm to ourselves and others.
And we can't change anything in our lives unless we become aware and bring it into 'consciousness'
There is a massive untapped wealth of knowledge stored in the unconscious.
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| coberst |
| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:47 am Post subject: |
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Selene
Well said!
What is your opinion of this paragraph from my OP?
"Comprehension of even the most basic human tendencies is no longer available to the common sense intuition. To grasp the essential elements of living successfully within a high tech society we must find ways to supplement our meager formal education that seems to prepare us only for a life of production and consumption; without the necessary understanding needed to be satisfied and successful in that new world where common sense is no longer sufficient for comprehending the vicissitudes of living." |
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| Pong |
| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:24 am Post subject: Re: Common sense won’t ‘cut the mustard’ |
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Extracted hypothetical  character:
| Selene wrote: |
...an incident, usually traumatic or symbolic... often occurs in childhood... can appear in normal everyday life as neurotic, obsessional, phobic and irrational behaviour.
The only way to cure these problems in adult life is to become cognitively aware of them.
...It is the knowing of self and 'self-actualizing'.
There is a massive untapped wealth of knowledge stored in the unconscious. |
I'd like Selene's opinion on how people may affect such an other. When we spot them in early stages, what should we do?
I've known many driven ones. High achievers. Minds racing to avoid thinking about some things. When life is going well for them & they're engaged, they so kick ass I'd feel a cad for telling them why. Also, their mania is useful, isn't it? But it seems like watching rodeo broncs with the pinch on to make them buck. Cruel? And I can see the impending crash. This is my greatest quandary.
Younger, I have better ideas. Give them tools, like fables. Clues they may remember, to find something. And sunshine never hurt! Besides the normal "power ups" and "level ups" we nudge every kid through. What else?
The very young just take everything at face value, so one can intervene directly. Save them from that path. I mean no offense to anybody. All lives are worth living, but we're wired to wish our children contentment.
How about the ones in crisis?
What if it's a little knot, that simply bugs the heck out of you and everybody else?
What if they're too old and set on looking out? Yet they're heading for a hard look and liable to despair? Is there such a thing as "too old"?
Can one purposefully dive into their unconscious without being compelled to? I've yet to see it, personally.  |
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| coberst |
| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:40 am Post subject: |
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Generally college or university time is spent becoming a specialist at some domain of knowledge that will facilitate getting a good job. Little effort is expended in becoming knowledgeable in other domains of knowledge besides a specialty. In college we learn more and more about less and less.
We must recognize that after our schooling is over we must begin to learn those things that are necessary for becoming good and happy citizens of a democracy.
Abraham Maslow defined a hierarchy of needs to be:
1) Biological and Physiological (water, food, shelter, air, sex, etc.)
2) Safety (security, law and order, stability, etc.)
3) Belonging and love (family, affection, community, etc.)
4) Esteem (self-esteem, independence, prestige, achievement, etc.)
5) Self-Actualization (self-fulfillment, personal growth, realizing personal potential, etc.)
Our schooling has prepared us to get a good job so that we can satisfy the first need but it has not taught us many other things related to fulfilling the other four needs. Our schools have taught us what to think but not how to think. |
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| Ophiolite |
| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:06 am Post subject: |
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Forum Radioactive Isotope
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| coberst wrote: |
| Our schooling has prepared us to get a good job so that we can satisfy the first need but it has not taught us many other things related to fulfilling the other four needs. Our schools have taught us what to think but not how to think. |
Only true if you went to a third rate school with fourth rate teachers.
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The Universe is not only weirder than we imagine it is weirder than we can imagine. J.B.S.Haldane. |
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| Pong |
| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 4:29 am Post subject: |
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Ophiolite, please respect the OP. Your troll isn't helping the thread.
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| coberst wrote: |
1) Biological and Physiological (water, food, shelter, air, sex, etc.)
2) Safety (security, law and order, stability, etc.)
3) Belonging and love (family, affection, community, etc.)
4) Esteem (self-esteem, independence, prestige, achievement, etc.)
5) Self-Actualization (self-fulfillment, personal growth, realizing personal potential, etc.) |
| coberst wrote: |
| after our schooling is over we must begin to learn those things... |
After? No way. My son's in 1st grade and already has those 5 solidly as any parent can provide & instill. When else do we acquire these? You get the foundations from parents, not school. Preconscious, not young adult. School can't change the trajectory much.
After schooling is over, people are so far grown upon this core structure, they're hardly aware it exists. They may consciously reinvent it in a way, e.g. puzzling over philosophical questions... which they had already answered matter-of-factly when they were 4 years old. Why do people forget this? |
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| 425 Chaotic Requisition |
| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 4:36 am Post subject: |
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The Doctor
Joined: 18 Jun 2007
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Location: UKGBNI, England, Derbyshire
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| Pong wrote: |
Ophiolite, please respect the OP. Your troll isn't helping the thread.
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What? Are you on?!
_________________
"There is no knowledge, that is not power" - Ralph Waldo Emerson. |
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| Pong |
| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 4:44 am Post subject: |
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Anti-mods, daily.  |
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| coberst |
| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 6:52 am Post subject: |
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Joined: 18 Feb 2007
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| Pong wrote: |
Ophiolite, please respect the OP. Your troll isn't helping the thread.
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| coberst wrote: |
1) Biological and Physiological (water, food, shelter, air, sex, etc.)
2) Safety (security, law and order, stability, etc.)
3) Belonging and love (family, affection, community, etc.)
4) Esteem (self-esteem, independence, prestige, achievement, etc.)
5) Self-Actualization (self-fulfillment, personal growth, realizing personal potential, etc.) |
| coberst wrote: |
| after our schooling is over we must begin to learn those things... |
After? No way. My son's in 1st grade and already has those 5 solidly as any parent can provide & instill. When else do we acquire these? You get the foundations from parents, not school. Preconscious, not young adult. School can't change the trajectory much.
After schooling is over, people are so far grown upon this core structure, they're hardly aware it exists. They may consciously reinvent it in a way, e.g. puzzling over philosophical questions... which they had already answered matter-of-factly when they were 4 years old. Why do people forget this? |
I think that our educational systems, just like all public policy, is controlled primarily by private interestes. These interests want graduates that can help maximize production and consumption. our schools teach us what to think and not how to think.
Adults must begin a process of self-actualizing self-learning when their school daze are over. |
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| Ophiolite |
| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:00 am Post subject: |
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Forum Radioactive Isotope
Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 4062
Location: Scotland
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| Pong wrote: |
Ophiolite, please respect the OP. Your troll isn't helping the thread.
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Excuse me.  Would you care to take over my moderator role?
Coberst has made a claim that appears central to his thesis. This claim is that the skills and knowledge addressed by education in schools is basic, inadequate and deals only with the lowest of Maslow's Needs. I contend this claim to be false, at least in part, and therefore that Coberst's thesis is flawed.
That is a pertinent point to make. You don't agree with that point - you feel the other Needs are acquired from parents and life experience. I certainly don't consider your counter point to be trolling simply because it differs from mine. I would appreciate a similar level of respect when I offer a view that differs from yours.
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The Universe is not only weirder than we imagine it is weirder than we can imagine. J.B.S.Haldane. |
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| Ophiolite |
| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:06 am Post subject: |
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Forum Radioactive Isotope
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| coberst wrote: |
| I think that our educational systems, just like all public policy, is controlled primarily by private interestes. These interests want graduates that can help maximize production and consumption. our schools teach us what to think and not how to think. |
Given that I first learned about Maslow's Heirarchy of Needs and Hertzberg's Motivators (and a dozen similar concepts) from the private business sector I think your statement is wrong.
Given that I work as a training manager within the private business sector and that the training I design, commission, or deliver focuses on teaching people how to think, rather than the basic facts, then again I think you have an inaccurate picture of how the business world is operating.
Are there elements of the business community that function as you describe with the motivations you imply? Yes.
Are there schools that fail to give their students the abilities and vision to engage in self actualisation? Yes.
Are these the norm or the intent? No.
_________________
The Universe is not only weirder than we imagine it is weirder than we can imagine. J.B.S.Haldane. |
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| Pong |
| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:46 am Post subject: |
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Please accept my apology Ophiolite. Coberst didn't take your words the wrong way, and now neither do I. Plus who am I to say where the thread should go?
Suppose formal education could go far enough, instructing young adults about their unconscious minds. Should it? This ought to tickle some US republicans: How about state engineered ...er, unconsciousness guidance programmes? It's not like religion in the public schools. |
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| JaneBennet |
| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Ophiolite wrote: |
| coberst wrote: |
| Our schooling has prepared us to get a good job so that we can satisfy the first need but it has not taught us many other things related to fulfilling the other four needs. Our schools have taught us what to think but not how to think. |
Only true if you went to a third rate school with fourth rate teachers. |
| Pong wrote: |
| Ophiolite, please respect the OP. Your troll isn't helping the thread. |
The “you” in Ophiolite’s post isn’t referring to the OP directly; it’s just an impersonal pronoun. (Replace it with “someone” if you like.) 
This is one reason why I’m always careful about using “you” as an impersonal pronoun when replying directly to a post. It can so easily lead to a misunderstanding if I’m not careful.
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“A problem worthy of attack
Proves its worth by fighting back.” – Piet Hein
Why can’t a bull see red – literally can’t? Did You Know? |
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